Alloy

[ILostMyGoat]

Hello all, I’m very new to casting and have seen some conflicting information on the alloy you use.
1-Does the alloy actually matter? When doesn’t it? When does it?
2-When starting with an unknown alloy where/how do you get to the desired alloy?
3-How do you determine what your starting alloy is?
Thanks for the help!


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[toallmy]

That's quite a complex question , but only if you want it to be .
# 3 There are simple back yard sorta test to check the hardness of your alloy such as the thumb nail test , or pencils with various hardness , as well as hardness test kits , all the way through having your alloy analyzed .
# 2 the only way to change your alloy is to add something to it to achieve your desired outcome , ( and that can be made as simple or as complicated as you want it to be ) .
# 1 the more you demand from your alloy the more you need to put in it .
At first I cast 45acp , and 38s loading them on the mild side - I was worried about getting zinc in my alloy so I chose to start out casting with plumbing lead , finding I wanted to get a little better fill out casting at a cooler temperature ( casting hot cast smaller )I added a little tin , then I started casting for the 9mm so I started cutting my plumbing lead alloy with COWW's to harden up the alloy helping with my boollits getting squeezed under sized when loading ( the real fix was properly expanding my case ) . Next I started casting for the rifles , I'm going to stop there things get a little more complicated when you start demanding more from your alloy .
Try what you have then decided what you need to add to it .

[ILostMyGoat]

Thank you for the info, that answers a lot of my “I need a 100% solution before I start” questions. The only other one I have is I’m worried about shooting cast and ****ing up my rifles barrel. I plan on PC and keeping velocity on the low side. Should I be worried? What are some signs that something’s not right? Does it have a lasting effect? (If I am trying things out and making adjustments) thanks again!


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[bangerjim]

Answers to a ton of questions asked:

1-Does the alloy actually matter? Depends on the speed and gun you are shooting.
When doesn’t it? When does it? See above.

2-When starting with an unknown alloy where/how do you get to the desired alloy? Starting out with an unknow alloy is a VERY severe handicap! You always start with something you know and the "dope" it with the things you want.

3-How do you determine what your starting alloy is? Either buy from a reputable source (S&S section or RotoMetals) or have it x-ray analyzed by BNE on here. He will do it - PM him for specific details.

Sounds you are way in the woods on details of what you have - a VERY poor way to start learning casting. Invest in some VERIFIED % alloys to start and learn with. Once you get experience, you can broaden your casting/alloying techniques. Right now, you are just stabbing in the dark it sounds like and you will be very disappointed very fast.

This is a learning by doing process. You can read until your eyes hurt and still not get it right.

Practice (with known products) makes perfect!

[lightman]

Hello all, I’m very new to casting and have seen some conflicting information on the alloy you use.
1-Does the alloy actually matter? When doesn’t it? When does it?
2-When starting with an unknown alloy where/how do you get to the desired alloy?
3-How do you determine what your starting alloy is?
Thanks for the help!

It sounds like you have some good answers to your questions.

There are a few things out there that will make good bullets without blending a special alloy. Lead from stick-on wheelweights, plumbing lead or roofing lead is soft lead and works good for black powder loading where you push the bullet into the bore. Clip-on wheelweights or Isotope containers work well for most handgun loads and slower rifle loads. Some casters add a little (2%) tin to wheelweights. When you start getting into loading faster rifle cartridges many casters use an alloy made from the various type metals. (as in newspaper type)

There is an excellent book, From ingot to target, that is free to download from this site. Look for it in the stickies.

Proper bullet fit in the bore is more important than the alloy used, up to a point.

You won't hurt your barrels shooting cast bullets. Its possible to get heavy leading with an improper fit and/or too soft of an alloy.

Don't be inteminated! Browse through the stickies on this site, read the book that I suggested, and Good Luck. Feel free to ask questions.

[GrayTech]

What rifle/gun and for what purpose?
You need to have a target to aim for.
Cast will not damage a barrel, and leading can be cleaned if it happens.
Clean out the copper from the barrel before shooting cast or you may end up chasing your tail seeking accuracy.
PC will generally prevent leading and can handle higher velocities.
Cast for hunting has the added consideration of desired expansion.

[toallmy]

Thank you for the info, that answers a lot of my “I need a 100% solution before I start” questions. The only other one I have is I’m worried about shooting cast and ****ing up my rifles barrel. I plan on PC and keeping velocity on the low side. Should I be worried? What are some signs that something’s not right? Does it have a lasting effect? (If I am trying things out and making adjustments) thanks again!


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Casting in it's self is the first thing you should try getting the hang of , but don't over complicate it to start with or you will talk yourself out of even trying to cast boollits . Remember you can toss them back in the pot and keep practicing . Take baby steps to start out - paying attention to what you're doing and how it works out while casting .
Melt your alloy , clean it up , preheat your mold , lube your mold , and have at it ......
Don't get out of hart if at first your cast boollits are not perfect you can still shoot them at lower velocity at closer range . While gaining experience you can also practice powder coating . Plus get a little experience loading cast boollits .

[ILostMyGoat]

Thanks for all the info, I’ll start reading that book. I’m planning on casting for a 30-30 a recently acquired, target loads out to 100 meters. I appreciate the encouragement to, I’ve been reading about casting for months now just hesitant on buying equipment


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[toallmy]

Do a little research , and ask the members what they think of the equipment before you order anything , pot , mold , powder coat , this could save you time , money , and frustration .

[centershot]

ILostMyGoat,
Doing the necessary research is important, and it sounds like you are immersed in that right now. Do not be afraid to buy a mould and any other equipment that you'll need to begin casting, you will learn more from DOING than from READING. Get started, you'll soon be shooting accurate groups!

For the 30-30 it can be very simple. You'll need a boolit that measures approximately 0.311" in diameter. You can shoot these unsized, simply tumble lube them (Search for Ben's Liquid Lube - BLL) or you can use Lee Liquid Alox cut 1 part to 3 or 4 parts Mineral Spirits for lube. No need for expensive equipment if money is tight! You can shoot these boolits without gas checks up to around 1300 fps without any problem, usually. In essence, you are shooting a .22 RF on steroids! It can be that somple! If you want more speed then you'll need a second or third coat of lube and a gas check. Sizing may become necessary depending on your demands from your rifle/load. Buy some gear and go get 'em!

[Land Owner]

Even an unknown alloy can be useful in casting boolits. The table indicates how many specific caliber boolits that can be made from 20#'s of any alloy.

If you mix 1# of unknown alloy into 19#'s of known alloy (in a 20# pot), the unknown will dilute to about 5% (similarly 0.5# unknown in 19.5#'s known is about 2.5%). The point being, the effect of a low percentage of unknown alloy in an individual boolit will probably be insignificant.

Making lead and alloy of lead boolits is not Rocket Science. Just spread out the effect of an unknown alloy by diluting it in any known alloy and continue to make boolits till you are happy. At the end of the day it is doubtful the "muddy pedigree" cast boolit will be affected on its flight to the target.

[GregLaROCHE]

It could be a good idea to start by buying a proven alloy. That will take out some of the variables, when first starting to cast. You may have to pay a few bucks for it, but in the long run, it will be worth it.

[PBaholic]

Hello all, I’m very new to casting and have seen some conflicting information on the alloy you use.
1-Does the alloy actually matter? When doesn’t it? When does it?
2-When starting with an unknown alloy where/how do you get to the desired alloy?
3-How do you determine what your starting alloy is?

Metallurgy in itself is quite complex. When you apply this to guns, it becomes even more complex. I'm not a Metallurgist, just an engineer that has been trying to understand the alloy aspect for many years.

I shoot .38, .357, .45ACP and .45Colt, so relatively slow and forgiving calibers. I started with wheel weights as my lead. Most bullet alloys will be a combination of Pb (lead), Sn (tin) and Sb (Antimony).

I mostly use the hardness of the alloy to determine what mixture I'm going to use. I used the Brinell method for determining what the hardness of my alloy was. He did this by pressing a sphere into the test material and measuring the diameter of the indent it made. Since you are only using one side of the sphere, I changed that to a 1/4" rod, with a spherical end. If you look at my drill press method, this explains the method and the results for any Pb based alloy up to BHN 16. The graph shows the hardness of the alloy of Sn and Pb from 0 to 63% Sn, and illustrates how high concentrations of Sn increase the hardness. 63% Sn and 37% Pb is the hardest alloy you can get from these 2 elements. This is solder, which is used in electrical circuits. Most solder is 60/40 solder. Not shown here, but if you increase the amount of Sn, it gets softer. Adding Sb changes the hardness as well, but it is not as easily illustrated, and much more complex.

I eventually evolved into an alloy that had a BHN of 10, that I powder coat. Powder coating is where you actually paint the outside of the bullet with powder paint. The paint acts as the barrel lubricant, and in my opinion, makes the best bullet. It also allows me to have a lower BHN than I would normally shoot in my guns.

I've tried pure lead bullets. The are soft at BHN 4 or 5, and are hard to work with. They don't fall out of the molds well, and you need a much higher tempurature to cast them. Sn can be added to 10% of the mix, and I can get a good alloy, but it is getting very expensive.

I already have a lot of pure lead, Linotype and Pewter (mostly Sn). My goal is to find the best mix to minimize the use of my Linotype and Pewter.

I've been reading about the crystaline structure of PbSnSb alloys, and there is an interesting properties when the amount of Sn and Sb are equal, but there was little information as to the hardness of the alloys. So I made a bunch of alloys from 0.5% SnSb to 10% SnSb. My BNH method allows my accuracy to about 0.5 BHN on the lower part of the scale, and the 24 and 48 hour BHN's are listed.

There is much more to this than I have posted here. I'm just at the point where I'm going to be shooting the 99:0.5 alloy aged between a few days and a few weeks. So far the pouring and molding aspects of this alloy are excellent. My bullets came out a little heavy, since they contain a higher amount of Pb. My 230 gr bullets poured at 240 gr.

As you might expect, this has been quite time consuming. Since I'm retired though, it has been a nice distraction. I shoot every week, about 200 to 300 rounds, so this is fun too.

[fredj338]

If you are casting handgun bullets, especially if coating, I think too many worry about alloy. If it is reasonably hard, 9-10bhn, sized right, it will usually give good results up to 1200fps or so in handguns. So while I do test bhn occasionally, I dont sweat it for my handguns, which is about 95% of my casting.
Just starting out, I would buy a few # of known alloy to cast with. Theis gives you a base line for the procedure. Then you can get into things like range scrap & mystery alloy.

[LenH]

Keep in mind "FIT IS KING, ALL ELSE IS SECONDARY". Having said that , the only time I really worry about alloy is for my BUllseye Bullets. I like hardball 92-6-2 for those bullets.
For general plinking I will use range lead for these bullets. They aren't pushed that hard and most any lead will work. For rifle, paper punching only I use an alloy of 'waterwd' down
Lyman #2 90-5-5 and mix enough pure to make it 95-2.5-20.5, but that is far as I worry about alloy.

BTW my range lead is about 10 - 10.5 BNH so it is a bit tougher than most.