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Thread: Seeking Hornet / K-Hornet Propellant Nirvana

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master


    stubshaft's Avatar
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    I gotta stick with 2400! It works great in my Hornets and Bee's.
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

    Men who don't understand women fall into two categories: bachelors and husbands!

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    My TC encore loves the NOE 225-60rn over 4.5 unique it will shoot one hole groups at 50 in a normal hornet

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    It's an amusing process thus far. Fired up the mold at the end of casting up a different Weird Science tangent my Pop is on, and generated these:

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    I've got to go a little deeper down the rabbit hole of discovering what exactly Winchester did and when to correct the headspacing issue. All I've found is some posts on a Winchester collector's forum that says things were done, and that my rifle appears to be on the right side of the change, but does not say what those changes were.

    Since it's an improved, straightwall case and I'll be neck sizing, I don't think there will be much to worry about, but still, it's good to know these things.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    I have found 1680 works very well, high velocity, good accuracy, with jacketed. With boolits I have used 4227 for great accuracy.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david s View Post
    In my 22 Hornets with the standard chamber I use a case full Lil'Gun exclusively. Lil'Gun seems to have a bit of an iffy reputation in the K Hornets. I think I'd start with 1680 in the K'd rifle with 296/110 and 2400 as back up trials.
    Interesting about Lil'Gun in the K-Hornet, buddy has two K-Hornets, Ruger 77/22 and a very nice Kimber. He won't shoot anything but Lil'Gun. Crazy how some guns like different stuff.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    I don't personally have any experience with the K'ed Hornets just the run of the mill Hornets. There was a fairly extensive conversation about Lil'Gun in the K Hornet on Saubier forum that I followed but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere too. Lil'Gun as a propellent can be a bit of a discussion starter even if being used in something besides the small Hornet case. When Hodgdon came up with Lil'Gun I took to it almost immediately for my Hornets and haven't found a single reason to switch.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    4227 just plain works with 225438, for me anyway. never even thought of trying heavier cast bullet. I can't explain it but last summer I played around a bunch with 4227 in a few different calibers that I had not sent much time with in recent years and even though it leaves powder in the barrel it shoots great and real accurate and it reminds me why I have a whole bunch of it in the powder bunker.

    7.5 grains with Remington 6 1/2 primer in Winchester brass

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy

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    I use 2400 and Red Dot, NEI 39 gr GC shoot them fine, kill a couple pigs with it too! My 43 had a 5 digit serial number, sold it to a great friend, just have the Savage 340c now! Shoots even better!
    Semper Fidelis, to God, Country and Corps!

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy alfadan's Avatar
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    After reading about challenges with getting the hornet to shoot well, especially out of a ruger m77h, I had to get one. I was actually disappointed that it shot MOA right off the bat! Anyway, 1680 works really well. I tried 296 last summer and it showed a lot of promise.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    Been a month and a half of trials. Figure it's time for an update. Suffice to say, this little ******* has been a workload. The previous owner's "bedding" consisted of refinishing the interior channel with lumpy polyurethane. That's gone away in favor of Acraglas and a free float. I came into a box of factory Winchester 45 grain jacketed, so this is our control for the gun as it currently stands:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The high-left was all me, so a purt-near half-minute gun if we can just get the damn planets to align.

    Thanks to all who recommended the small pistol primers, but it turned out to be a total waste of resources in this rifle. Wildly erratic velocities. Tried magnum pistols and things got better, but could only be called an "improvement" in the sense that it was less bad. Back onto small rifle caps and we're FINALLY starting to see something that looks like results.

    Today we fired 10 shot strings working up with single rounds at tenth grain increments to see if we could get a stable progression of velocity, and, dare I say it, something resembling groups?

    Unique was a bust. Ran it from 4.4 to 5.3 grains. Each tenth took the bullet up about 30-50 fps except for the last two, which were tight, soooo probably overly sensitive to the little variables in this gun. Ran from 1690 to 1945 fps and sprayed them over about a five inch circle at 100 yards. This powder sticks with the handguns.

    2400 between 7.1 and 8.0 grains showed some promise. The start of the string was pretty erratic, but the hottest four all clustered into just under an inch. This string showed the pains one needs to go to with little rounds. In .308 or .30-06 class rounds, I'll run increases of two or three tenths of a grain, and get decent flat spots in the velocity progression that cover three or sometimes even four rounds. With this little guy, two consecutive rounds 0.1 grains apart would be close on speed, but then they'd take a pretty significant jump. Gonna try a string of 20 at 7.7 grains / 2061 fps on the next outing and see how they do.

    4227 didn't show much on paper for grouping, but it did give me a nice flat spot on velocity with 9.0 to 9.3 grains hovering around 1940-1950 fps, with 9.2 being a weirdo at 1903. Gonna run 20 at 9.1 and see where that gets us.

    H110 between 7.6 and 8.5 grains was also a bust - about a four inch group without so much as a promising cluster. Velocities almost as up/down erratic as we had across all the previous powders with the pistol primers. This one's out.

    1680 at 10.0 - 10.9 grains put all ten rounds into a neat 1.5" x 1.5" cluster. Like the 4227, it gave a NICE flat spot in the progression across 10.3 to 10.7 grains (five shots) that floated around 2065-2095 fps with 10.5 being the freak at 2148 fps. Gonna try 20 rounds at 10.5 (it being in the middle of what was otherwise a stable range).

    As troublesome as this rifle has been, Murphy's Law dictates it'll end up liking 1680 significantly better (I'll have to buy more of that)

    So next time out, we'll have three 20 shot strings that are each of all the same load. With a bit of luck, I'll have something definitive.

    Stay tuned!

    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Kudos for returning with a report after this much time!

    You have me fired up about getting Hornets crackin’

    Most of my collection involves Contender barrels, the best of which is a TC factory Super 14” SS that was “K’ed” post factory. It is just snake eyes with Lil Gun and 33gr V max.

    The odd duck is a Savage M40, a single shot made but discontinued a few years ago. I have not gotten very far with that one. A K chamber might just be what it needs?

    What I have not figured it out is if it’s barrel is pressed in or threaded as that could cast a shadow on re-chambering it.

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

  12. #32
    Boolit Master

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    4227 the winner so far. It gave tighter numbers in the workup shoot, and also in the 20-rounds-all-the-same test today.

    Unfortunately, we've still got about a 4" group for the 20. Call it 3" if you call the first three, which clustered elsewhere, fouling shots. Despite being "the best" it still ran a spread of 170 fps and an SD of 48, so still a bunch of room for improvement.

    Gonna continue to ponder and experiment. Possibly try to load hotter; possibly the same loads with a different brand of SR primer.

    It's a cantankerous little cuss. . .
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    If memory serves, (then) Hercules 2400 was so named because it enabled the .22 Hornet to achieve 2400 f/s with a 46 gr. projectile. I might have read that wrong.
    I think 2400 would be the first propellant I'd try, assuming I had access. H4227 would be my next choice, and may afford higher velocities. While I am not generally a fan of H110/W296 in anything except .30 Carbine, it COULD be the performance king, with such a round.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    Did you try slowing the bullet down ? If I wanted to go faster than a .22 LR I would use a Jacketed bullet . I haven't done the Hornet with lead yet but I think I would try the 1200 fps range with that bullet and see what happens.
    Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Southgate View Post
    Did you try slowing the bullet down ? If I wanted to go faster than a .22 LR I would use a Jacketed bullet . I haven't done the Hornet with lead yet but I think I would try the 1200 fps range with that bullet and see what happens.
    I suppose Trail Boss and leaving the gas checks off would be an option for that - IF I wanted another .22LR. The performance goal here is to be able to rupture a half-liter water bottle at 100 yards; not poke a clean hole and leave it standing at 50.

    Unfortunately, the Hornets lack the fast rate of twist needed for the subsonic work I'd LIKE to do. I could get pretty excited about lobbing 70 grainers, but this old doggy can't play that game.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    fatnhappy - PM sent

    Did a review of the data from the magnum pistol primer test. . .it's looking like 4227 is presenting the tightest, least radical velocity swings across even the unsuccessful strings. Definitely looking like the horse the cart will get hitched to at least until it's clear no magic is gonna happen.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    the arthritis in my fingers is getting to the point loading small bullets is not as easy as it once was but 4227 is good and 300mp has worked for me. some folks swear by lil-gun for the hornet
    about primers and the hornet I keep a stash of Remington 6 1/2's just for the hornet and 25-20

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

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    Ok. . . so 9.4 grains of 4227 and the magic FINALLY seems to be appearing (left target)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Ten shot group with:

    High: 2010
    Low: 1939
    Spread: 71
    Average: 1971
    SD: 22

    Which ain't stellar, but at least it's no longer acting like a random number generator and it's grouping better than a load of #4 buckshot.

    Primer, alloy, and bedding tweaks to follow, but at least I know how to push it now.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Glad you are getting encouraging results. I have four Hornets to “tame”! Three of them are various Contender barrels, the other is the single shot model 40 Savage bolt gun.

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    I had good luck with WW680 and the WW 46 gr rn hp, also with Unique and 55gr cast Bator or the Lyman 225438. Just be careful sizing as the cases are very thin. Good luck, have fun and remember the journey is half the fun. Tim (90% of baseball is half mental)

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check