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Thread: Seeking Hornet / K-Hornet Propellant Nirvana

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Seeking Hornet / K-Hornet Propellant Nirvana

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    Scored this cute little Winchester 43 that I learned on first firing was no longer a .22 Hornet, but a .22 K-Hornet (The barrel is properly marked now )

    Been fire-forming cases with gifted ammo while I wait for the dies to arrive. Going to be shooting the NOE TL225-52-RF-BV4-GC, probably seated fairly far out as I appear to have plenty of room in both chamber and mag. Current thinking is that IMR4227 is the "on paper" powder of choice; 2400 and Unique are both also possibly on the table.

    But in the current shortage-driven practice of waste not, want not, I figure it's worth asking what others have already learned. Gotta stretch those resources.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


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    H110, Lil-Gun, Red Dot.

    Also look at pistol primers with some powders instead of rifle primers.

    That bullet might be alittle heavy for the Hornet unless you can get the velocity up to stabilize it in a 1-16 barrel. Looking at a NOE 225-46 but heard it has difficulties feeding from a magazine due to the WFN but us GTG in a single shot rifle. I looked at NOE's 39 grain pill but jumped in on the MP 225-39.

    Careful on FL sizing.
    Last edited by Greg S; 12-30-2021 at 04:27 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy Toolmaker TN's Avatar
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    Great cartridge and rifle! The first chuck I ever shot was with a Win 43 in .22 Hornet. That was over 40 years ago. Tried to buy that rifle several times over the years, buy the guy wouldn't part with it. I've owned probably a dozen Hornets and K-Hornets since, but I wish I would've gotten that 43.

    Second on the pistol primers. I have used them in all my Hornet and K-Hornet loads. Can cut group size significantly, as in half in my experience in some rifles.

    The other thing I learned about the Hornet is to treat it like a .17caliber, with the small case everything matters! Uniforming flash holes, uniforming primer pockets, fire-forming then neck sizing cases can all make positive results with this case.

    I have had good luck with 4227, H110/296, Lil-Gun, 2400, Unique, and Red Dot. AA1680 is a great powder in the Hornet. For cast, I had good luck in some rifles with slower powders. RL7 and 4198 worked well.

    With the twist rate in that rifle, shorter bullets are going to work well. The bullet I had the best results with is Lyman 225415. 45gr FNGC. That mold Has been discontinued for years now, but they do come up for sale occasionally. But anything with that general profile should shoot great in that rifle. It fed great in both my Ruger 77/22's, a Hornet and a K-Hornet.

    Enjoy working with that great rifle!
    “The State that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”
    ― Thucydides

    “The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.”
    ― Thucydides

  4. #4
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    2400!

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    I use Lilgun powder for J-word loads and Red Dot for cast boolits below 1600fps.
    2400 is probably a real good one.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
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  6. #6
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    Never loaded lead in my Hornets or Bees but any of the older Lyman/ Ideal manuals should have good info on that . I shoot jacketed bullets and the 35 grain Vmax is my favorite . Top powders for that are W680 (discontinued) ,1680 , Little Gun, IMR 4227 , 2400 and probably a few more , these are what I have used . I still have a bit of W680 and it is still my #1 choice . I use small pistol primers in all loads .

    Congratulations , the m43 is a fine rifle . They are however not a rifle you want to shoot a bunch of hot loads in so stick to loads on the moderate side pressure wise or you will end up with headspace issues to fix . I use 12.5 grains of W680 , AA1680 and Little Gun with the 35 grain Vmax , gets me all the speed I need without excess pressure . Got to remember the 43 is just a slightly upscaled .22 LR design , based on the m 69 rimfire rifle .

    You should get a copy of the Frank De Haas book on bolt action rifles and read what he has to say about the m 43 before you start loading for it .
    Last edited by Eddie Southgate; 12-30-2021 at 06:28 PM.
    Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Good intel thus far gents! Keep it comin'!

    Greg S: The NOE 52 grainer TL/WFN/Ranch Dog has already been verified to fly just fine out of this rifle from the fireforming loads which were 5.7 grains of 2400 with a velocity of 1700 fps out of the standard Hornet High Wall it was originally cooked up for. Makes a great bottle buster with that nose profile! If feeds out of the magazine just fine at the moment, but I have yet to see what happens with the blown out cases.

    I was contemplating small pistol primers. Good to hear it's a legit practice. Do you think some of the powders under discussion would do better with the rifle cap, or is the case simply too small to need it at all?
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  8. #8
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    The one exception to the small pistol primer for me was the 2400 but it never grouped well enough to suit me with either primers . Might have perked up with small rifle magnum primers but the other powders ( 680 , 1680 , Little Gun ) all shot so much better that I never bothered to try . The 12.5 gr of Little Gun gives the most velocity of the three but the lowest pressure . That is why I tried it to begin with . Group size for all of those three powders is for all practical purposes the same . Read the De Haas writeup on the rifle and let that be your guide to what you try to feed it . He tells you how little effort it takes to mess the rifle up but also tells you exactly how to fix it . The washer to fix the headspace when it gets out is a bugger to make but works like a champ once properly made . You will love the rifle , just treat it gentle , it's not a Ruger .
    Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy Toolmaker TN's Avatar
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    When I discovered the use of small pistol primers in the Hornet, the theory was that the blast of the small rifle primers was moving the powder charge and bullet before full ignition of the powder occurred in the small capacity case. This was in an article from the mid to late 80's by Ross Seyfried, if I remember correctly. Would be nearly impossible to prove, of course. But it does seem plausible. I do know that switching to small pistol primers cut the group size in half in both of the Hornet rifles I had at the time.

    I agree with not trying hot loads with that rifle. They are great rifles, but not overly strong. With reasonable loads it should last a lifetime, and then some.
    “The State that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”
    ― Thucydides

    “The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.”
    ― Thucydides

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    for me, AA1680 turned out to be the best powder. tried most of the others.
    Barry

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    My k-hornet loves AA 1680. Have used 2400 and 4227 but groups much better with 1680

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    Boolit Master

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    Eddie Southgate: Good stuff! I will dig out my copy of De Haas, perhaps he has something specific to say on the headspacing. I did a little research on the design - this particular rifle is one of the later production ones which incorporated some re-working to help with that issue. Wondering if it was solved entirely?

    Yeah, I noticed the strong family resemblance to my 69A.

    I think I may be done with 2400 for this kind of thing. I played with it for a hot .38 Special / Keith HD load and had a lot left unburned, and have been seeing quite a few crumbs of it in the bore with my fireforming loads - much like you would in a .22LR. I think it'll be a lot more at home shooting cast out of a .308 with a large rifle primer to consume it.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  13. #13
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    In the trivia department, 2400 got its name from the velocity it produced from the .22 Hornet.
    My last Hornet was a Charles Daly( Armscor) bolt action and it did ok with LilGun and 4198.
    My only Winchester 43 was in .218 Bee. It must have developed excess headspace in its past because the barrel had been set back. It was a great shooter and between it and my Dad's Marlin1894CL .218 - I fell for the Bee over the Hornet.
    I think that the K Hornet chamber will help brass life

    Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    Rumor has it that early M-43' had .223 diameter bores, not the current.224. I don't know when the transition occured.

    For me, 12.6 of 296 pushes a Sierra 1310 along quite nicely. Makes the Hornet a viable 300 yard prairie dog rifle. Nice pointy 45 grain soft point.

    Load is straight from Hornady---"for Ruger #1 and #3 rifles only".

    Think the only cast I shot was with Unique, but that was a while ago, so that's only a guess.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Don’t have a K-Hornet, but both my Hornets, a custom low-wall with 16” twist and a Ruger #3 with 14” twist, do well with a casefull (uncompressed) of 4198 or H-4198 with the Ideal 225462, gaschecked and lubed, but unsized at 0.225” or so. The Ideal 228367, about the same weight but fatter, again gaschecked and lubed without sizing, shoots even better.

    Depending on brass thickness, the charge is 9.8gr or thereabouts, poured slowly through a drop tube. The loads just shade 2000 ft/sec, shoot into 1-1/2”-2”, and land with a certain authority out to 100 yards. 4198 starts the boolit more gradually than the quicker, more traditional powders, and the heavy boolits (55 to 58 gr) ensure enough pressure to burn all the powder. Never tried pistol primers.

    I’ve only seen signs of excess pressure in Hornet shells that have lengthened beyond the trim-to-length specs, a not uncommon occurrence with reloading this cartridge. When they are the proper length, I’ve seen no problems.

    As mentioned, your 43 is a little on the marginal side for hot loadings, so you ought to sneak up on the max charges in the usual way. But pressures seem mild in my rifles.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    My M43 is a Bee, and I've done nuthin but IMR 4227 powder for the zippy loads. Whats not to love about a powder that goes through the measure as accurately as water.

    My fav jacketed bullets are 35 gr V-Max. When I shoot lead, I keep them slow and use baby charges of Green Dot and such.

    My old 43 was sold to me cheap as an act of love, and I am starting to think about finding someone I love good enough to pass it to. I've been using it for over 45 years now, and in the stories of me and my partners, it is legend. jd
    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    My 43 was simply known as "The Bee", and those rifles are just easy to shoot. They fit most folks just like the 22's we grew up shooting, but with a round like the Bee or Hornet they were deadly for another hundred yards or more.

    The man who sold me mine was a former employer who had used it for "deer damage hunts". It had apparently whacked many deer in the noggin, assisted by spot-lights and alfalfa.

    For me it's been the right medicine for truck-loads of ground squirrels, chucks, jacks, coyotes, and muskrats. My muskrat load was with the little Lyman 45 gr, round nose, gas check bullet cast straight WW metal. Four grain of Green Dot. For a good pelt, the shot had to be in the head, and with the Bee it was easy enough at from ten to thirty yards.

    Here's Grandson, with his first coyote called to The Bee.

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    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    2400 for obvious reason

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    In my 22 Hornets with the standard chamber I use a case full Lil'Gun exclusively. Lil'Gun seems to have a bit of an iffy reputation in the K Hornets. I think I'd start with 1680 in the K'd rifle with 296/110 and 2400 as back up trials.

  20. #20
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    Eddie Southgate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Eddie Southgate: Good stuff! I will dig out my copy of De Haas, perhaps he has something specific to say on the headspacing. I did a little research on the design - this particular rifle is one of the later production ones which incorporated some re-working to help with that issue. Wondering if it was solved entirely?

    Yeah, I noticed the strong family resemblance to my 69A.

    I think I may be done with 2400 for this kind of thing. I played with it for a hot .38 Special / Keith HD load and had a lot left unburned, and have been seeing quite a few crumbs of it in the bore with my fireforming loads - much like you would in a .22LR. I think it'll be a lot more at home shooting cast out of a .308 with a large rifle primer to consume it.
    He is very specific about the headspace issue and tells exactly how to fix it when it gets out of spec . Does not reset the barrel but makes a washer that goes in the bolt . Not especially easy to make the washer but it can be made and the installation is easy if you are familiar with disassembly of the bolt . It can be redone as many times as you need to do it but I prefer to just keep pressure reasonable and hope to never have to fix it . If I want 22-250 speed I got one of those too so there is no need to hotrod the m43 .
    Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check