Fireforming cases

[abunaitoo]

I've been using Red dot and cream of wheat, and a dab of white glue on top.
Noticed people used different powders.
Does it make a difference if it's a fast or slow burning powder?????
I use Red dot because it's fast, and because no boolet, will "Pop" everything fast.
But sometimes I have to do it twice before it forms out all the way.
Is slower powder better???

[toot]

remember that using COW, ill increase pressure if used behind a bullet, when shooting it in a live round. I am with you, I like a faster burning powder when fire forming brass.

[DCB]

I fire form for Ackley improved rifle brass 40* shoulder.
I tried several different ways to form rifle brass and it was a nightmare.
Did not like the cream of wheat used wax, glue, soap ETC. just made a mess.
the brass came out all ways of unformed.
The method that works every time is a light load of powder and bullet with the bullet seated long enough to hold the case straight in the chamber between the face of the bolt and the neck.
Formed 100 Lapua and 100 Winchester and did not damage one piece of brass.

[gumbo333]

Good advise. Use a bullet seated out long enough to touch into the lands, any bullet, maybe something you won't likely ever use. Not sure the type of powder makes a lot of difference, a fast shotgun type or whatever you normorly use. Do use a low end charge. Lots of guys use Unique or similar. Maybe use up some powder you will less likely ever use.

[littlejack]

When I fire form my 8mm-06 AI cases, I use the same powder and charge as I do when loading cartridges that are already fire formed. The only difference may be, using odds and ends of 8mm bullets I want to get rid of. Cases come out perfect every time.

[jonp]

I have used Bullseye, Red Dot and Unique. Powder with a small piece of toilet paper then Cream of wheat or cornmeal then a wad on top to hold it in place and a smear of vasoline to seal it

[15meter]

With light loads, I have found firing while vertical helps considerably. Or bump up the load a grain and try again.

I drop the corn meal with a longer drop tube, like dropping black powder to get a more dense load. Then I usually tamp it down with a rod as close to neck diameter as I can and add more corn meal.

I usually top it off with a wax plug. I have a several lifetime supply of wax/paraffin. I melt the wax and pour it into an old bread pan 1/8-3/16" thick. Let it cool and just press the sheet of wax down on the end of the case. Let the case cut the wax.

Minimize powder used and zero lead used. What's not to like.

Primers are usually recycled from mystery loads people have given me. Powder is also usually suspect powder. Take down powder from aforementioned mystery loads. Garage sale finds.

Just picked up ~8 oz. of Alcan #7 at a garage sale today. At least that is what the reagent bottle that it is in has written on it. Even if I just stick a fuse in the powder to watch it burn I suspect I got my moneys worth out of the garage sale.

A dozen Remington 8 mm Mauser loaded rounds.

A 15 lb. ingot of unknown lead, haven't had a chance to see if there is any marking on it yet.

A 18.5 lb. roll of rosin core solder.

6-8 lbs of electrical solder.

Nice shape Weller soldering iron.

A sealed 250' box of romex.

A 50 foot roll of romex.

For $20.00.

Oh, and 300 Remington 57* primers in like new boxes.

And yes, I am bragging, can't help it.

[Tonto]

My experiences are limited to 7TCU, 30 and 357 Herretts and 300 Blackout. I’ve always used a starting load from any manual with a cast bullet at the heavy end of the scale for the cartridge. Not at all interested in COW or glue going down the bore. I’ve never had a problem and the fire form loads always shot fine. This especially relevant these days with the primer supply.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I agree with "Littlejack" a near factory load will form the case perfectly. For my 303 Epps, I neck up to 8mm then form a new neck based on the cartridge headspace and fireform.

[littlejack]

Now that's an improved cartridge!

[Combatmedic63]

I like the process that 15meter uses. I would like to know a little more about putting the load together. Are you saying that you are using maybe a half load of powder and cornmeal to top it off? Do you have to use a piece of cardboard or paper product before topping with wax?

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

HEAVY BULLETS…FULL LOADS
HEAVY BULLETS…FULL LOADS
HEAVY BULLETS…FULL LOADS!!!!!!!!
I’ve fireformed thousands of cases from Hornet to Heavyweights. I almost ALWAYS neck and shoulder anneal now prior to FF with near 100% success. Had nearly 60% case loss with PPU brass until I started annealing.

[15meter]

I like the process that 15meter uses. I would like to know a little more about putting the load together. Are you saying that you are using maybe a half load of powder and cornmeal to top it off? Do you have to use a piece of cardboard or paper product before topping with wax?

Typically Unique or Bullseye, have used Red Dot. Light load, start @ 10 grains for a full sized case, then work my way up from there.

The case is packed pretty full with cornmeal, very close to the mouth of the case. The wax is compressing the cornmeal. Nothing else above the cornmeal.

Case annealing before fireform is case dependant. Sometimes it's required, sometime not.

The most radical case forming I've done is 7mm Remington Mag to 458 Win Mag in one fire forming shot using cornmeal. That one absolutely required annealing before fire forming.

Not much powder, no lead wasted, recycled primers, what's not to like.

Firing vertically when you are on the low end of powder loads seems to help get fully formed cases. Found this on 30-30 to 38-55 a number of years ago by accident.

Works for me.

[toot]

allways point the muzzle to the sky when FF,ing. the atmospheric pressure, it increases the pressure on the cartridge case when firing.

[toot]

horizontally firing does not make a good pressure in forming the case.

[Outer Rondacker]

I will be testing some of these other ways soon on my 35 Whelen. Some of these ways sound like a nightmare of gun cleaning afterwards.

[15meter]

I will be testing some of these other ways soon on my 35 Whelen. Some of these ways sound like a nightmare of gun cleaning afterwards.

I've done 6-10 different caliber conversions doing this, totaling easily past easily 500 cases. Probably more than a thousand in total. The barrel has always been easy to clean.

YMMV, good luck and report back if it doesn't. I'd be curious if you do have a problem, what caused it.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Pointing the gun (cartridge) upward when firing low pressure loads does one very important thing: It keeps the powder right at the primer so it gets primer flame spread over it better.
This may not be so intuitive w/ filler (especially when compressed & plugged, you'd think the powder would be mechanically held there), but I was reminded just this weekend of the 'benefit' of keeping low pressure charges near the primer. It wasn't a form load I had the pleasure of diagnosing, and I can tell you that settling the powder at the front of the case can take a load that fires when held horizontally or pointed up, to one that does not. The whole thing started with a friend saying: '...shoot this, there is a delay...'

Gunpowders are meant to burn in a specific pressure range, and require certain conditions to ignite. Burning and Ignition Are Different. This is not double talk: I have an MSME in combustion.
Many methods of fire forming produce pressures much less than where the predominant rifle powders want to burn. It does Not take 60K psi to form a brass case.

Many Powders also don't want to light well when there is a lot of empty space (the primer energy has additional places to go), and the primer flame has a chance to skim over the surface rather than spread through the powder. Think of a 40% full case, where the powder is when settled horizontally, and where the flash hole is.

It is also Not the case that when ignited the powder Will always burn. I have had powder extinguish in a large cased small bore cartridge, and when I pulled the bullet the powder was packed so tightly behind the bullet I had to take it out using a pick. What I found then was lots of straw colored (no longer dark grey) powder in the lower part of the column. The coating(s) began to burn away, and then combustion stopped after a significant pressure rise jammed the powder in the front 75% of the case.
I also had the experience of a charge in a large pistol case (~45 gr powder capacity) fail to stay burning, jam the bullet in the forcing cone, and then when I got everything disassembled, I found ~ 25 gr of WC680 from a charge of 38 gr (Too LOW!) compacted in a cylindrical brick behind the bullet.

The filler method was never given to me w/ warning of cleaning issues becoming attendant. Everything pretty much blows out. Do watch for leftovers in Barrel! Some debris could get back into the action when pulling the case, and give you grief. It can also make lumpy little pockets in the side of your nice new brass...

I have made thousands of cases that required fireforming.
Easy ones like Ackleys (35 Whelen Improved, 6-250 improved, and others) that work well with the ~80% load train of thought, 17 Ackley Hornet w/ Unique & a TP plug (indoors, when I could not get to the range, and I will say that a box w/ internal padding/filler to dampen the noise creates a Fire Hazard from little bits of unburned powder acummulating over 100s of rounds!), to a 416 that I did by straightening a 30-40 Krag (used two methods: straightened mechanically w/ expanders all the way up and then shot to remove the remaining constriction bellow the bullet base & also by necking to 8mm and seating a 32 BP conical over Trail Boss & firing -- it stretched the cases, which surprised me), and others like getting 300 Savage brass from 6.5 Creedmoor, where I took common brass and necked up farther than needed, then back down to created a false shoulder and shot w/ a cast bullet load to form the Savage that was hard to find at the time.
Had a friend FF lots of 6 AI brass w/ 15 gr of Unique & a TP plug (going on memory for charge). Kept outside he had a pleasant experience w/ the gun pointed upwards...

Different things can work well, and some techniques may work better for some cases than others.

You Must Always have the headspace controlled in some manner before fireforming.

Headspace control is why a moderately stiff load works nice w/ most Ackley rimless designs: they are a couple thousandths shorter on headspace than the parent. Close the bolt, the parent headspaces correctly, and you fire. Done w/ Success, usually.
Sometimes w/ a small shoulder you can run into issue this way. I have Shortened the dimension to headspace on a cartridge before w/ "normal loading" loads. 35 Whelen Improved. The Firing Pin energy Can drive the case deeper into the chamber, set the shoulder back, and then when fired the walls blow out & grab, and still leave the case short or worse yet, stretch it at the head. 98 Mausers w/ their heavy striker mechanism, and a heavy spring, can easily do this.

Many rimmed cases go OK with this moderately heavy charge method, as they headspace off the rim which is not altered. Sometimes though this goes poorly. More often that not if the body gets blown out A Lot. There I did better w/ a couple mid range loads. Sure the first leaves the shoulder rounded and requires another go, but it has worked for me.

You might have to play around a little to get a good form w/ your method. Always think before acting...

Please Don't think light charges shooting a wad are harmless. I have watched a 17 cal plug of TP go through a cardboard box from 5 gr of unique...

[littlejack]

P.O. Ackley designed his A.I. cartridges to use the parent cartridge, which we already know. When properly cut, the A.I. chamber has a .004 crush fit on the parent cartridge, which provides a definate "zero" headspace when the bolt is closed. So, if your bolt closes with ease on the parent cartridge to be fireformed, your chamber was not cut correctly. That's when you wind up with the case stretching just forward the head.Yes, you can seat a long bullet to touch the lands, but I believe when the primer is hit by the firing pin, either the bullet can be driven further into the rifling or the case is driven further on to the bullet or both. Either way, then you will have headspace in the process. Albeit, maybe only just a few thousands. When I chamber a loaded 30-06 round with an 8mm bullet for my 8mm-06 AI, it takes a much greater pressure to close on that round than a normal round chambers.