First try making paper cartridges

[armoredman]

I got the 44 caliber paper cartridge making kit from Guns of The West, and decided on Christmas Eve, since nobody is here, I'd give it a shot.

The rolling papers didn't cut quite straight, using a different brand where I couldn't find a glued end like in the video, so...I just went for it.
First, the tools are all 3D printed. Not really a problem, but as you will see later, the funnel could be a bit wider.

The first part went easy enough. I only ruined a few...good thing rolling papers are pretty cheap!



I don't have the razor the guy recommended, so i used my recently sharpened Benchmade AutoStryker instead, worked pretty well.



Powder...using my one and only can of Goex FFFg.



This funnel is small, and spillage was a big problem. Of course, spilled powder went onto paper, which at the end of the game was rolled up and the powder back into the powder flask. This just looked wrong...but I am used to smokeless, which always takes up less space. Load is 25 grains of black.



The powder measure is built in to the paper former, which is kind of handy. One HUGE problem I had was with gluing the ball in the paper - remember WHERE the line of glue IS, so to seal up the ball to the paper. Had more than one just fold up when I pulled it out and powder spilled all over the catch paper. Oh well, it's a learning curve.



I an used to time consuming, being a reloader and a caster, of course, but these 6 rounds took an hour. I made twelve in total, and none of them are lubricated yet - might do that on the day of. The new cartridges are drying the glue right now. I think I will grab a tray of 9mm brass and load up 50 of those to remind me how much better we have it today!

[Tar Heel]

Trust me when I say ....keep at it. Your first few will be an absolute disaster. As you become more deft at it, your cartridges will look fantastic in no time at all. I suggest you definitely get a razor to trim the paper as soon as you can. A glue stick for the paper works GREAT. The razor will give ya clean edges.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

It's hard to get ahold of an Era's Gone Bullet Mould but if you do you might find some of their designs easier to work with than balls.

Are you nitrating your papers?

[LAGS]

Just scotch tape a paper extension to make your funnel wider and easier to pour into.
Or make an extension out of the type of powder funnel you have sitting on your bench.

[GregLaROCHE]

I load paper cartridges for my Chassepot. There’s definitely a learning curve! That funnel looks small to me. A larger one would make it easier.

[tnlonghunter]

I've done just a handful paper cartridges so far, only using a homemade former. But I just bought a similar set of .44 and .36 formers. My biggest issue the first time was that I put in a lubed felt wad over the powder, and it was hard to get them in straight. I left the paper ends long and twisted them up to seal, instead of glue. Looked like a row of tiny tampons! But they shot great.

Can anyone answer this question: if you glue in a RB like is illustrated by the OP, and dip it in melted lube, how much lube actually stays when you ram them home? If you're RB s are correctly sized, they should shave that small ring of lead, along with much of the lube, right? What am I missing?

[armoredman]

I realized I forgot the wads...but in my defense, the video didn't mention wads, so, I will be sure to lube them when I get to the range.
I will try to find a razor knife, looks like it might be handier, and leave cleaner edges to be sure. I also think if I trimmed them about a hundredth of an inch higher, it will give more paper to grab on to the ball.
No, the paper is straight cigarette paper that is included in the kit from Guns of the West, https://gunsoftheweststore.com/produ...kit-44-caliber
I have absolutely no idea how to nitrate them, but I already had a buddy send me a link to making skin cartridges...I get the concept, but gah! That is kind of train wreck gross, Haggis meets black powder.
tnlonghunter, I have been using these balls for a bit, and they always leave the lead ring, haven't had any issues yet. But< I usually drop a wad in when I load with loose powder on the range, too. This is really just to make the range session go easier and more fun.
Really have to be careful handling these things...paper meant to quickly burn is NOT very sturdy!

[armoredman]

Did I say thank you for the positives? It helps.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello armoredman,

Very nice write up, I've yet to make a cartridge.
I think when I take the step of dumping the powder charge,
I will be using the LEE Dippers, or a Flask with proper sized spout.
It does look like a tedious task and I'm sure I'll be all thumbs,
however like you stated, It's a learning curve.

Thanks, AntiqueSledMan.

[tnlonghunter]

I realized I forgot the wads...but in my defense, the video didn't mention wads


tnlonghunter, I have been using these balls for a bit, and they always leave the lead ring, haven't had any issues yet. But< I usually drop a wad in when I load with loose powder on the range, too. This is really just to make the range session go easier and more fun.
Really have to be careful handling these things...paper meant to quickly burn is NOT very sturdy!

I got my formers from Star & Bullock (apparently, they relocated from Deadwood to Florida!), but his video also did not use a wad for RB's. He said to dip them in melted lube, just like with conical. Thing is, conicals have a grease groove to hold the lube. Hence my question. I also have always used a lubed felt wad when loading at the range. Anytime I forget, it's clearly noticeable. But yes, these paper cartridges make it way more convenient once you're at the range.

[Tar Heel]

I suggest abandoning lubricated wads in paper cartridges. The geometry of a cone precludes their use. They are fine when loading chambers individually at the range with loose components, but their use in a paper cartridge is neither practical or historically accurate. You will be chasing you tail attempting that.

Nitrating paper is, in my opinion, a complete waste of time. I got almost as much residue with nitrated paper than I did with regular paper. When using paper cartridges, you WILL get more residue in the chambers as a matter of course. It is the nature of the beast. Originally paper cartridges facilitated the loading process and eliminated all the extra cooters you needed to tote around with you. They were never marketed or quoted to be debris free or clean burning. Even users back in the mid 19th century experienced paper debris in the chambers hence the attempts to relieve it with nitrated paper.

You will still get buildup with nitrated paper at almost the same rate as non-nitrated paper. For me, it was just not worth the extra time nitrating paper for the minimal advantage it provides - if any. It's fun to try and you can say you did it, so by all means, give it a whirl and see what happens!

What WILL make your range session more productive when shooting paper cartridges is to bring a bronze cleaning brush that will fit into the chambers easily (like a 38 caliber cleaning brush for a 44 caliber cylinder).
Every two or three cylinders you shoot, run that brush down in the chambers and capture all the paper debris that accumulates at the base of the chamber. You can shoot paper cartridges all afternoon doing that.

Here is a photo of nitrated paper cartridge debris. I was using period paper (c 1870) with a higher rag content. Theoretically this nitrated paper should have burned itself up yet it didn't. When using nitrated modern papers like coffee filter paper, hair curling paper, or cigarette rolling paper, I still have debris accumulation, not to this level of course, but still have a significant amount.

Attachment 293631

[Intel6]

I have been also messing with paper cartridges for use in my ROA. I have tried cigarette paper and perm rolling papers but I have been disappointed by the amount of paper residue left over when firing. I was thinking about trying nitrated papers but I am not encouraged by Tar Heel's post. I also don't like that they don't work well for me when trying to use a lubed wad. The only thing I have been happy with so far is my cast heavy hunting bullet with cigarette paper and 777. Since I don't use a wad (I lube the bullet in tumble lube) anyway (takes up room for powder) it works well and I think the higher pressure load burns up the paper better. I am thinking I could also lube my conicals and make them the same way but the paper build up is still a PITA.

[Tar Heel]

2021, Raleigh NC, Sunday: Thinking of going to the range today to shoot black powder C&B revolvers. Let me load up the truck. Will need: Can of Black Powder. Three C&B revolvers. Box of RB's, Box of Conical bullets - two types I cast. Bullet lube. Lubricated felt wads. Tin of Caps. Targets. Hearing protection. Nipple wrench. Spare nipples. Nipple pick. Cleaning patches. Cleaning rod. Moose milk. staples. Staple gun. Markers. Collapsible chair. Spotting scope. Rags. Powder measure. Couple packages of paper cartridges to show folks and score some cool points. Bore-butter knife. Chronograph. iPhone. Spare batteries. Range box. Eye protection. Ear plugs. Sandwiches. Drinks. Cooler (it's 72 degrees). Range card. Car keys. and much much more.

March 15 1865, Averasboro NC: Break out a package of paper cartridges and load my 1851 Navy revolver with 6 shots. Pray I survive the pending battle.

Things were a lot different back then and paper cartridges simplified storage of ammunition, transportation of ammunition, and the actual loading of a cylinder of ammunition. They didn't shoot all afternoon at a local range like we do now. It sure is more fun now without Yankees shooting back at you (perspective ) and we all have a lot more fun, but one has to see the purpose of paper cartridges and that the need and usage is different now than 160 years ago. Nobody in the mid 19th century rolled lubricated felt wads into paper or skin cartridges and I doubt they were used at all in any form. We use them today because we can and have the luxury of availability, peace, the internet and so forth.

I am glad I shoot now at the range and not across a cotton field at the blue bells. For sure!

[Brokenbear]

I've done just a handful paper cartridges so far, only using a homemade former. But I just bought a similar set of .44 and .36 formers. My biggest issue the first time was that I put in a lubed felt wad over the powder, and it was hard to get them in straight. I left the paper ends long and twisted them up to seal, instead of glue. Looked like a row of tiny tampons! But they shot great.

Can anyone answer this question: if you glue in a RB like is illustrated by the OP, and dip it in melted lube, how much lube actually stays when you ram them home? If you're RB s are correctly sized, they should shave that small ring of lead, along with much of the lube, right? What am I missing?

I am using nitrated "Wave Form" curler paper, a cellulose glue stick to seal the disc to the bottom and seal the side seam ..then powder and using a heavy duty reverse action tweezers from Hobby Lobby (SKU: 858480) I pick up the ball at the apex of it's diameter with the sprue EXACTLY 90 degrees to the jaws with sprue on top ..that way I go around the ball with the glue stick passing over the tip of each tweezer jaw then squarely drop it in the powder charged paper casing ..once the glue is set ..I dip them in warm (liquefied) mix of 75% bees wax 25% olive oil ..I dip it bullet first and I dip it 3/8" PAST the bullet/ctg case's largest diameter ..you now have a projectile that even though swaged at it's larges point still has a ton of lube just past the swaged area on the front of the bullet as well a 3/8" of heavily lubed paper case wall behind the ball and in front of the powder ..

Your next concern you are thinking is won't the lubricant on the paper below the bullet affect the powder ???
My answer is if you are shooting black powder you will have to prove or dis-prove whether the lube will affect the black powder but I am shooting 3F Triple Seven and I am now shooting paper fixed cartridges that were made in the above manner close to a year ago and the lube IS NOT getting to the powder at all and is absolutly not even migrating down the paper! ..my early loads attempted to use a Wonder Wad in the paper cartridge an it was a disaster making the paper almost untouchable AND making the powder fire erratically ..

Also clean up with the above lube process is eazy as everything is staying very soft ..even not cleaning for several days after shooting (T7 and non corrosive caps!)

Happy New Year to all

Bear

[Tar Heel]

Dipping, as per Brokenbear, is the way to go for sure. Know however that the English learned that lubricated paper cartridges made for the 1853 Enfield Rifled Muskets started corroding the lead and developed lead oxide cake on the bullets after only just a few months in transit/storage. The corrosion was caused by the tallow in the lubricant. I too have dipped my revolver cartridges after rolling them and after several months, the lubricant tends to crack and fall off. Visible corrosion of the lead bullet is evident as well although not enough to cause me any concern after a few months or a year. I just dip them again. The tallow to beeswax ratio is always at play. Oil instead of tallow will not remedy the cracking due to drying out.

Interesting stuff isn't it? Prelubricated paper cartridges, in this case rifle cartridges, caused the British no end of grief in the mid to late 19th century. A great read on the subject can be found here:

Attachment 293700

[toot]

WOW!!! now that rely look's nasty. does it clean up ok? when it gets that bad does it bind up the cylinder?

[Mytmousemalibu]

Something that has always been of interest to me about this with regard to nitrated paper cartridges. Forgive my ignorance if this isn't the common method you used. Most of what i have recalled folks doing for paper nitration was just saturating the cartridge paper in molten potassium nitrate aka. salt peter, and letting it it dry. I have no idea of what the historically accurate method was in the days of paper cartridges but saturation in potassium nitrate or another nitrate salt isn't a very clean method. While it is nitration of sorts, I can see why it isn't showing to be very effective. Its going to leave behind salts and uncombusted paper and also corrosive residue. Something I want to try playing with. The better way to get a proper nitrated paper cartridge is to nitrate your paper with a nitric acid/sulfuric acid solution and a post saturation rinse to wash out all the acids and letting it dry. That leaves behind paper that is now nitro cellulose. Your paper is essentially smokeless powder. I would think this would not leave behind any noticeable paper and in theory enhanced igntion. This is the same as the magical flash paper magicians use. It burns very fast, no smoke, no ash.
I can see why this would be unappealing to most for the effort and dealing with some strong acids but it would be the way to really get true nitrated paper. Something id like to test some day. Again I haven't a clue if anyone actually did it this way historically. They definitely had both of the acids back then.

[Tar Heel]

Something that has always been of interest to me about this with regard to nitrated paper cartridges. Forgive my ignorance if this isn't the common method you used. Most of what i have recalled folks doing for paper nitration was just saturating the cartridge paper in molten potassium nitrate aka. salt peter, and letting it it dry. I have no idea of what the historically accurate method was in the days of paper cartridges but saturation in potassium nitrate or another nitrate salt isn't a very clean method. While it is nitration of sorts, I can see why it isn't showing to be very effective. Its going to leave behind salts and uncombusted paper and also corrosive residue. Something I want to try playing with. The better way to get a proper nitrated paper cartridge is to nitrate your paper with a nitric acid/sulfuric acid solution and a post saturation rinse to wash out all the acids and letting it dry. That leaves behind paper that is now nitro cellulose. Your paper is essentially smokeless powder. I would think this would not leave behind any noticeable paper and in theory enhanced igntion. This is the same as the magical flash paper magicians use. It burns very fast, no smoke, no ash.
I can see why this would be unappealing to most for the effort and dealing with some strong acids but it would be the way to really get true nitrated paper. Something id like to test some day. Again I haven't a clue if anyone actually did it this way historically. They definitely had both of the acids back then.

That is a VERY GOOD POINT! Generally we speak of nitrating paper with stump remover soaks which is a common way to skin a cat and nowhere near as good as with the acid baths. I haven't heard from anyone using the acids and what paper they are treating. Boy would that make a great experiment. I seem to recall one or two folks on here who performed the chemical nitration but can't recall who they were if it was on this venue.

It is my understanding that the cartridges of old were not nitrated due to the degradation of the paper over a very short amount of time. I would suspect (read assume) that with the abundance of KNO3 used for powder making, that they would have done the salt soak instead of the acid baths. I have read second hand accounts of attempts to nitrate back then but no first hand sources exist to my knowledge of commercial cartridges being nitrated and packaged for the army or civilian use. I'll have to source the LOC on this one to see if any primary source exists.

[Mytmousemalibu]

That does make sense too! And with chemical nitration your absolutely right about stability over time. Since again, the paper has more or less because smokeless powder, something smokeless powder has that this paper wouldn't is deterrent coatings and stabilizers. So I can see them not having a great life expectancy. Not sure just how long that would be but curious. One of these days im wanting to get my hands on a Chassepot or Dryse rifle and get into the paper cartridge game and try these ideas. Perhaps a cap & ball revolver or a percussion Sharps. The oldest gun in my collection, a Swiss Vetterli, is still a metallic cartridge gun.

[Tar Heel]

The paper rifle cartridges that DougGuy used in the US Civil war were just methods to transport powder and ball in one package. On the other hand, the British paper cartridges were works of art. They paper patched a sub caliber .550" Boxer bullet (a Pritchet style to keep it simple) for ease of loading, coupled with a powder chamber stiffener, and prelubricated the outside of the cartridge. Man are they nice to look at and use. The Confederacy made every attempt available to field these cartridges brought into the south by the blockade runners. These cartridges were Force Multipliers for the troops using them since a Enfield or Springfield rifle could fire a HUNDRED of these without fouling. These are the cartridges used when the English held off superior forces (Cavalry) and the term "The Thin Red Line" was coined to describe the 93rd (Sutherland Highlanders) Regiment when they stood against the Russian cavalry at the battle of Balaklava on 25 October 1854.

Use of these cartridges were truly a paradigm shift in rifled musketry both for rate of fire and range of fire. These cartridges completely changed infantry battlefield tactics and made cavalry obsolete overnight.

Any idiot like me can roll a US style Civil War Springfield cartridge. It takes an artist to make the British cartridges.

Attachment 293745