Cap n' Ball resources on YouTube, some questions

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There have been some extensive threads on this subject, which you might turn up doing a "search" of the site. My experience was that I did experience chain fires-- a very unnerving experience. This despite the fact that my balls did shave a ring when loaded. So I went to Crisco, but found that by the 3rd shot it was melting out of the other 3 chambers and making a mess. Then I went to hi-temp bearing grease with much better results about the melting, but still had a chain fire. Next, I tried pre-lubed wads from Ox Yoke, so I had powder, ball, wad, grease. Still had a chain fire. I couldn't figure out why chain fires didn't seem to be a problem worthy of note in the gun books by the old timers, but was about ready to hang it up. Then, here on the forum, a member named Indian Joe (I think he's an Aussie) opined that the nipple/cap fit is all-important. It is true that many nipples don't fit the size cap they're supposedly made for. They seem to fit too tightly or too loosely, and European made caps can be slightly different despite the number on the container. In my case, I found that the No. 11 caps I was using, although pressed onto the nipples tightly, did not all seat as deeply on every nipple and one or two would be high. I discovered this by carefully cycling the cylinder and closely watching the recoil shield on the left side where I discovered that some would drag on the shield as they passed. The conclusion reached was that the chain fires were due to recoil setting off the chamber that had a high cap when recoiled back against the shield. An evaluation of each nipple's size and purchase of new nipples where needed solved the problem, as did the purchase of two cases of CCI No. 11 caps, so that everything is uniform. As a result, i no longer use the wads, but continue use the grease for leading, but would no longer fear the chain fires if it was just the powder and ball. One thing that I always use if I'm not just target practicing, shooting, reloading, shooting, on a C&B revolver to be left loaded for any period of time is the Blue & Grey cap guards. They do two things: Assure that the cap remains in place on the nipple, and provide some waterproofing for the cap.

DG

[curioushooter]

What prevents chain-fire is a well sealed lead (being non-combustible) bullet and proper nipples and proper manufacturing.

That's what I wrote. I've never had a chain fire (yet).

Chain fires start from the front or the back. A well sealed lead ball or bullet (even better) is a better seal against chain fire than any grease could every hope to be. This is just obvious to me.

Chain fires can of course start from the back. And no matter how much crisco or other stuff you smear on the FRONT it will not stop chain fires from the back.

There is where nipple specs/manufacturing come into play.

If the nipple isn't fitting nice and tight into the cylinder threads it won't be sealing out the fire that can cause chain-fires from the back.

If cap is not fitting well on nipple, if it's a bad cap, or the nipple is too long, short etc. it can cause chain fire for a variety of reasons. This is why nipples should be for a PARTICULAR CAP. And you should use only that cap. For me this is CCI #11. And the reason why I never even used the factory nipples, which are for a some European cap that isn't stateside but is closer to the Remington #10 cap supposedly.

One thing I think is not good about most nipples is the SIZE of the flash hole. It is far too large at 50 thousandths IMO. This increases risk of chain fire (of some spark falling though that giant hole) etc. It also allows way too much blow back. Small holes on the Treso nipples .028" have never failed to ignite when I wanted them to and never failed to prevent chain fires in my Pietta. Highly recommended.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Never had a chain fire with a lubed face on cylinder , but could get them every time without lubing , caps are tight on mine , and this has been beaten around more then once , shot my old cap and ball pistol from the time I got it and it would chain fire with no lube .

Do what you want with loading and I will have no chain fires with mine , I have always made sure the caps fit tight , never had nipples that were not threaded and tight , never worried about what cap I used and I used number 10 or 11 CCI or Remington or Navy arms , I shot that pistol for years and never experienced a chain fire from the rear .

[Tar Heel]

Chain-fire. Sympathetic discharge. Adjacent discharge. Over the last few decades there has been a LOT of speculation, theory, "proof", and wonder surrounding this situation. Having been shooting these revolvers for the last 50 years and having NOT experienced a chain-fire, all I can tell you is that I might have one or, I may not have one.

I highly suspect they originate from the rear, not the front, although if I load a 31 caliber ball into a 44 caliber cylinder, I may initiate one on purpose. If I leave powder all over the face of a cylinder or mix it with crisco and smear it all over the face of the cylinder, I may initiate one as well. If I place a cap which is too large on an undersized nipple and squeeze it to remain there, I may initiate a chain-fire as well.

My observations over the last 50 years, on the range watching nimrods try to load C&B revolvers, is that they really should be doing something else with their time. Most periodic C&B shooters I have seen on the range are sloppy, careless, inattentive, and uninformed. They are tragedies waiting to happen. That's my observation. Take it any way you wish to take it.

I used to gob Crisco all over the face of the cylinder 40 years ago because the manuals of the time suggested it. The Crisco did in fact, get blown off all the chambers within two shots and made an absolute mess of the gun. Worthless as a lubricant and doubtful as a chain-fire reducer.

Use of a lubricated felt wad and correctly sized ball improved accuracy, reduced fouling, and increased velocity for a similar charge of powder sans a wad.

Watching high speed video of a cap bursting on the rear of a cylinder convinced me that all the pyrotechnics happening at the REAR of the cylinder and NOT at the face of the cylinder was the cause of a chain-fire when coupled with sloppy loading practices to include incorrect cap size and/or deformed cones.

Watching this video and seeing what the eye misses, is enlightening.



Form your own opinion of course and throw your hat into this ongoing and never ending discussion regarding the root cause of a chain-fire event. Perhaps I have just been lucky at not having one or perhaps my attention to detail has saved me. Who knows for sure?

[derek45]

SLIXSHOT nipples

I make wads with beeswax/olive oil and paper towel.

they are thin, cheap, and work well.






Eras Gone makes really neat bullet molds, but have been OOS for a long time.

https://www.erasgonebullets.com/

[Tar Heel]

Tar Heel, crisco works as a lubricant. I use it on my 1858, and it DOES get everywhere and make the gun a mess, but, so long as i periodically pull the cylinder pin forward and lube it good, i can shoot 20 plus cylinders without any binding issues and it keeps the fouling in the barrell soft too.

No doubt it does work. I should have said the felt wad with beeswax and tallow works better with less mess. If I did not have the wads, I would probably use Confederate Lube or 2:1 wax to tallow. Crisco is readily available and for sure it is cheaper than beeswax. For some reason, I enjoy banging out those wads. It's mindless and repetitive. The older I get......

[Tar Heel]

And they come out yellow. Like Bananas!

[armoredman]

I think, by reading this, that I am doing something wrong. I have the Muzzle Loader Originals Shooting Wads in 44 caliber, and for the life of me, I cannot keep them flat when I put the ball in. Maybe they go perpendicular again when the ball compresses against the powder? I have not had a chain fire, and I think I would probably need a new pair of shorts if it happened! I use a .454 Hornaday round ball in both the Pietta 1851 and Uberti 1860. What replacement nipples would be good for the 1860?

[derek45]

... What replacement nipples would be good for the 1860?

SLIXSHOT nipples made my Pietta 1860 reliable.

https://www.slixprings.com/proddetai...Powder-Nipples

[Battis]

I've had chainfires twice, two different guns. The common denominator was the roundball mold that I used. It was out of round, with scratches and divots - it was a damaged mold. If there's an entry of some kind in a chamber caused by a damaged ball, a spark will find its way in. And both times, the ball from the adjacent chamber exited the gun at a 45 degree angle to the ground, as they were designed to do.

[armoredman]

I've had chainfires twice, two different guns. The common denominator was the roundball mold that I used. It was out of round, with scratches and divots - it was a damaged mold. If there's an entry of some kind in a chamber caused by a damaged ball, a spark will find its way in. And both times, the ball from the adjacent chamber exited the gun at a 45 degree angle to the ground, as they were designed to do.

How is that?

[danmat]

SLIXSHOT nipples made my Pietta 1860 reliable.

https://www.slixprings.com/proddetai...Powder-Nipples

What size caps do you shoot?
Says works with 10 & 11. I want to use #11 on my Pietta 1858.
Thanks

[Gtek]

My brain tells me that the usually found pathetic cylinder to barrel gap on most, the chamfering of cylinder holes and a not square barrel face helps along a few bad things also on top of the nipple issues. After I started accepting the fact that the Italian pops are kits and fixing up some things made it a little more enjoyable. And not just busting on our Italian friends, spent more than a few hours on a couple 2nd Gen's also.

[Battis]

How is that?

Are you referring to the way the adjacent balls left the gun? I once read that the percussion handguns were designed for the balls to exit at a 45 degree angle to the ground during a chainfire. or, if the guns weren't designed that way, that's how it would naturally happen. And it did - twice. No big deal - just a little extra boom and flame, and the next ball in line dropped to the ground. Where did I read that? I'll have to look around.
Now that I think of it, both guns were full framed, top strapped guns (Spiller and Burr repro, Remington repro). I never had a problem with a Colt, and I wonder what would happen with the wedge on the left side.
But, I'm sure they were caused by balls cast in a damaged mold.

[armoredman]

OK, sounds fair. Hopefully that will never happen to me, use tight fitting caps and balls that shave rings as well as wads.

[Tar Heel]

I've had chainfires twice, two different guns. And both times, the ball from the adjacent chamber exited the gun at a 45 degree angle to the ground, as they were designed to do.

I seriously doubt that Colt's would incorporate a design around a known failure. It's the same as saying when your auto fails, it was designed by Chevy to eject the occupant through the windshield at a 30 degree angle since your vehicle is defective but we are going to sell it anyway, knowing it will blow up and kill you at some point.

The assumption that Colt's, or any manufacturer, would do this is absolutely absurd. I am calling BS on this one guys.

[Tar Heel]

Paul Harrell has a youtube vid about a ROA of his that chainfires consistantly if used without lubeing the front of the cylinders closed.

Paul Harrell has 10 years of videos on his U-tube page, several of which are entitled "How to Spot a Fake Expert." Paul is a monetized publisher (read entertainer) and while his videos are well produced and his delivery is practiced, his subject matter covers everything in the world. If I had a revolver that routinely chain fires, I would be returning it to the manufacturer as a defective revolver - especially a ROA that routinely chain fires.

In any argument, an "Appeal to Authority" always seems like a good thing to do. We must remain careful however to appeal to a recognized authority in the subject. A video producer, making money on his entertainment product, will fall short of a firearm manufacturer in a statutory argument due to the assumptive risk assumed by the manufacturer fielding a product designed by engineers. It's simply a point to be remembered.

I enjoy Paul's videos for the entertainment they provide and the topics he presents on. He is a polished presenter and has some broad experience. His continued use of a defective revolver has to be questioned however.

[Battis]

I seriously doubt that Colt's would incorporate a design around a known failure

You got me on that one. I can't prove that I read something somewhere, sometime, that perfectly explained what happened to me during those two chainfires. And, if you read my post, I did say it happened with a full framed, top strapped revolver, not a Colt.
But, I did read it somewhere, sometime, which proves nothing, but, the balls in the adjacent chamber in the revolvers that chainfired on me did exit the gun at a 45 degree angle. Call BS on that, and you're calling me a liar. Well, it did happen. So, I'll refer back to my post which said that "or, if the guns weren't designed that way, that's how it would naturally happen. And it did - twice."
Comparing what Sam Colt might have designed to what Chevy might have designed, is well, hypothetical BS.
I used to frequent BP forums years ago, and one thing I learned is never discuss two things; chainfires and the actual, initial, intended purpose of the wedge screw. What was I thinking...

[Battis]

Here's a video showing a chainfire in slow motion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L6Top2Sekc

From what I've read, chainfires were definitely a problem in the revolving percussion rifles where your left hand was actually in front of the cylinder.

Here's an interesting take on chainfires and lubing (towards the bottom of the article):
https://www.frontieramericanillustra...m-colt-himself

[FLINTNFIRE]

Less internet and more time behind a trigger , do the tests yourself , I did , as to caps I always pinched them a little and made sure they were tight , ball mold I used was a new steel lyman it shaved rings when loaded .

I agree with the post about this being one of those subjects that there is no agreement on , I will rely on my own observations having tried with and without .