Smokeless .410 blanks from .444 Marlin

[TyGuy]

I know that some folks have made .410 shells from .444 Marlin brass. I happen to have a few spent .444s that I’d like to make into brass blanks for bird dog training. Ideally I would like to use AA7 as I have plenty on hand but I also have Unique and quite a few others. This is unlike any loading I have done in the past and I have never loaded blanks. I know that the rims may need to be thinned to fit the shotgun (break open single shot) but I have also read that some folks say the flash hole needs to be opened for successful blanks as well. Not sure if this would apply to these .444s or if I will just need to try a few to see if it’s necessary. Would cream of wheat be an acceptable “payload” packed in with an over shot wad?

Any suggestions would be welcome and I appreciate any guidance prior to embarking on this new endeavor.

[RickinTN]

Why not just use .410 hulls? I think that would be the simplest approach. I don't have much experience in what you are trying to accomplish but I believe on of the most critical components is going to be a very fast powder, maybe Bullseye? Hopefully someone who has been down the path before you will be along with better information.
Good Luck,
Rick

[TyGuy]

I do have a couple pounds of old Red Dot. That’s the fastest powder I have.

[Cast_outlaw]

You will also need wading to create back pressure or the will be more of a poof than bang black powder is used for most blanks because it needs no back pressure (not sure back pressure is the correct term)

[TyGuy]

I was hoping the cream of wheat would be enough resistance to allow the powder to ignite properly. I was imagining a cardboard overshot card roll crimped and maybe glued over the packed COW. Should there be a wad between the powder and COW?

I know this is a lot of theoretical fluff right now but I promise I’ll make time to start dabbling soon. I just don’t get much down time, especially with Christmas and New Years right around the corner.

[hondamikek]

I’ve done this on 20ga hulls.. 13gn Red Dot, overshot card and then grits or corn meal and seal it off with a small dab from a hot glue gun. That hot glue IS a projectile tho, so make sure you shoot skyward, but you know that already haha!

[woody1]

Data for 410 "blanks" from DuPont and later IMR is 10 gr. HS700x followed by enough .135 card wads to fill the case to the folded crimp. This is for both 3" and 2 1/2" hulls. pressure is 7500 - 8000#. I generally sub. Bullseye for 12 and 20 gauge which also call for 700x. Red dot should work fine also. I also load 444's for my 410's but have not made any blanks with them. Was it me I would try the 10 grain load followed by a bunch of cardboard wads cut with my 7/16" hole punch from Harbor Freight. You need to build pressure enough to get the bang you want and I'm not sure you'll get it with COW but it's worth a try. Yes you will need an over powder wad. OR absent a regular cardboard wad you could just shove some newspaper down over the powder and tamp it with a dowel or somesuch. I personally would figure that I might need to increase the powder some as the 444's have more case capacity than the 2 1/2 inch hulls. I believe you will find you need larger wads as the regular 410 wads don't seal the 444 brass. the fine print.........all this is theoretical and is not recommended by anyone. It's exactly what I'd do though.

If I left anything out or you have questions regarding the above, holler. Oh, you could also prob'ly use 44 mag. brass to do the same thing. I use it routinely for loading my 410 "shorts". I'd start with about 6 grains of Bullseye for them. I load 6.2 grains of Bullseye behind 3/8 oz. of shot in my "shorts". Regards, Woody

[TyGuy]

Well, I spent some time today dabbling with this project. I punched out some fiber wads using a sharpened .45LC case, hammer, and a lead ingot. I used an old empty Remington cartridge box for the wad material. I filed the headstamp off of the case to ensure they wouldn’t ever be mistaken for .444s again and also to thin the rim just a bit. I primed with CCI large rifle primers and went with Woody1’s suggestion of 10gr of Red Dot. Pressed in one of my fiber wads using a spent 9mm case on a punch (just about perfect diameter). Filled the case to the top with Cream of Wheat, packed it in with the same punch, topped it off, and added another wad. Finally I crimped it with a .444 seating die.

I took them outside and tried them out in both of my .410s. Nice loud report and no marks left on cardboard from 5yd. I did have a failure to extract on my old savage O/U .22/.410 but it’s had extraction issues with factory shells too. The rims are a bit smaller diameter than factory shells but my Baikal single shot does not seem to care. I’m going to call this one a success.

[brass410]

You will probably never wear them out. I have never tried loading blanks, but I do load for grouse and rabbit. I've found that the 9.3x74r fire formed to 410 makes a great 3" all brass case with LOT's of room for a healthy load of 296 or 231 pretty much any fast pistol powder. As you will notice all wads have to be larger than standard plastic due to interior size of case I just use a hand cutt over powder wad and put a plastic hull on top seems to work well, I dont crimp my cases ( shortens case life cause they start splitting) I use a hand cut over shot card pressed in with a wooden dowel and a few drops of water glass or duco cement. Its a ton of fun to shoot these loaded with black powder the looks you get from hunting partner when the smoke clears is hilarious its like what the heck are you shootin.

[woody1]

Don't you love it when a plan comes together? I generally put a slight crimp on my 444/44mag 410 loads and then also seal the top card with fingernail polish. Crimping will cause an eventual split but I just trim it off and use a shortened case. Annealing helps. You can color code your loads using fingernail polish.
If you need to thin the rim you should do it from the back, otherwise, well you know ... it'll shorten the primer pocket. One of my 410's needs a thinner rim. Thankfully the other 2 will work either way.
Regards, Woody

[TyGuy]

I was a bit concerned with thinning from the case head but the primers still seat below flush so I think it will be fine. I like the nail polish seal idea. I thought about hot glue but I’d prefer not to add another potential projectile. I’ll likely anneal these as a standard step from now on to help with case longevity. Black powder would be a lot of fun but I don’t need any more distraction for the dogs and I may not get the chance to be as vigilant in cleaning my shotgun as I normally would be.

Thank you all for your help and ideas. This is a great resource.