358-429 HP -- What speed and alloy?

[Buck Shot]

That's all great information, thank you very much, Megasupermagnum. Yeah, the 5" GP100 just feels so right to me, seems like the perfect barrel length for that piece. Mine is the Davidson's version, though (not the Lipsey) -- Model 1740 in SS.

I appreciate all the info you (and other posters) have provided. This is all going into my notes file.

[Groundpounder17]

I'm interested in how you end up liking your MP mold. I was considering the MP vs NOE mold, but in the GC version.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm interested in how you end up liking your MP mold. I was considering the MP vs NOE mold, but in the GC version.

I love the Keith bullet, but even I'll admit that if you are trying to wring every last bit of performance out as you can with a soft alloy, a gas check is a great thing. If you are trying to get the most out of a GP100 that you possibly can, it is going to be hard to beat the NOE 358-195-HP-U6, and either crimp with the Lee collet crimp die, or trim your brass about .050".

[358429]

I love the Keith bullet, but even I'll admit that if you are trying to wring every last bit of performance out as you can with a soft alloy, a gas check is a great thing. If you are trying to get the most out of a GP100 that you possibly can, it is going to be hard to beat the NOE 358-195-HP-U6, and either crimp with the Lee collet crimp die, or trim your brass about .050".

That 358-195-HP-U6 bullet looks really good, can you tell more about how you use it?

I have a hungry ruger 77/357 rotary mag bolt action rifle with a new old stock simmons 4x shotgun scope that I am feeding...

[megasupermagnum]

I do not have that exact bullet. I had Mountain Molds make me one, but I had the crimp groove so it is right for my GP100. It weighs 220 grains as a solid, and is .827" long, so slightly longer than the NOE bullet. It is not a bullet I'd recommend for general purpose shooting, which is what the Keith is best at. It is a special bullet to maximize all you can get. Out of my 5" GP100, I've passed 1200 fps with no pressure signs. Mine is a solid, but that NOE version with a HP would be one sweet deer or bear bullet.

[358429]

I just ladle cast a bunch of deep hollow point 358429 plain base bullets on a saucepan over turkey fryer, right now, with my (90/5/5 approximate) newest batch of metal.

They are very frosty and I expect the powder coat will get excellent coverage.

[megasupermagnum]

Lyman #2 alloy is not what you would want for a HP bullet for deer, but I assume you know that. With the deep HP, they should have quite the effect on coyote if you shoot them fast enough for the bullet to fragment.

[358429]

[358429]

My toaster is preheating

[Groundpounder17]

I love the Keith bullet, but even I'll admit that if you are trying to wring every last bit of performance out as you can with a soft alloy, a gas check is a great thing. If you are trying to get the most out of a GP100 that you possibly can, it is going to be hard to beat the NOE 358-195-HP-U6, and either crimp with the Lee collet crimp die, or trim your brass about .050".

I’m unfamiliar with this mould, but you have me interested. It wouldn’t be fired through a GP100 though. It will be fed to a 6” python. How’s the length of this?

[megasupermagnum]

I’m unfamiliar with this mould, but you have me interested. It wouldn’t be fired through a GP100 though. It will be fed to a 6” python. How’s the length of this?

I went into more detail in post #25, but the short answer is to simply seat it however it needs to be, and crimp with the Lee collet crimp die.

[JohnH]

Hey buck shot what kind of expander are you using to open the case mouths?

I use the lee universal expander, been thinking about noe bushings, not sure which one I should get.

Not Buck Shot, but about 2 months back I bought the NOE 360x356 expander as I use Al's 358429 in 38 Special cases (I got the .360 mold, my cylinder throats are .359) for my plinking and was not getting satisfactory alignment on seating with just the Lee Universal Flaring tool and the stock expanding plug in the powder thru die. Replaced the flareing tool with the NOE expanding plug and it has made all the difference in the world in smooth seating unskint boolits. The expander plug was money well spent

[megasupermagnum]

Not Buck Shot, but about 2 months back I bought the NOE 360x356 expander as I use Al's 358429 in 38 Special cases (I got the .360 mold, my cylinder throats are .359) for my plinking and was not getting satisfactory alignment on seating with just the Lee Universal Flaring tool and the stock expanding plug in the powder thru die. Replaced the flareing tool with the NOE expanding plug and it has made all the difference in the world in smooth seating unskint boolits. The expander plug was money well spent

I've had the completely opposite results. The Lee flare dies provide perfect alignment without shaving lead, but they don't expand the case very far down for our purposes. The NOE plugs expand the case a long ways down, but their "expanding" is useless to me. It kind of works... sometimes. Mostly I just end up shaving a bunch of lead, getting frustrated, and run all the cases through the Lee die to properly expand them. I did end up modifying one of NOE's plugs to a far greater design. I should send them the details and see if they will make a run of those.

[Buck Shot]

Finally tried casting with this mold today. I'm fairly new to casting and have never tried a HP mold, but holy cow, I had a devil of a time with the boolits sticking to the HP pins. Had to use pliers to get them off. Didn't get a single properly formed bullet to come off the HP pins without pliers. Abandoned the effort to read more. I see Miha suggests coating the pins with graphite, I'll have to try that. I also hear running the pot at a hotter than normal temperature can also help... that said, my pot was at 800°F and I still was having trouble (from what I've read, I should try to keep this lead-tin alloy at 700°F if possible to slow down tin oxidation) ... will report back when I have better news. Thanks again to all.

[358429]

Hey Buck Shot disassemble the pins off the mold and polish them lightly with a wire wheel

Or steel wool works too it's just so slow

Put it back together get your mold really hot
Then cast away periodically wiping lead smears away with the oiled cloth.

[Forrest r]

Typically I run the casting pot @ 725* when casting with the mp brass molds that have hp/hb pins in them. Used to use a thermometer and switched to pid controller, huge difference!!!

I also pre-heat the molds hot, real hot. They get hot enough so that the sprue puddle takes to the count of 10+ to solidify. This does 2 things, keeps the bullets from sticking on the cold pins (actually the pins will not be cold when the mold is heated this hot) & drops good bullets on the 1st cast. From there I slowly pour bullets until the mold cools to a Cadance I can cast at.

With the mp molds you have a ton of hp styles/shapes/choices. I've always tested loads for accuracy and then matched the hp to the velocity of the load I ended up with.

Haven't shot a lot of hp's in the 357's, mostly the common molds/bullets.
[IMG][/IMG]

Top row left to right:
a swaged 150gr jacketed hp made from 9mm cases. The large hp design is for slower speeds (800fps to 1000fps)
Mp 640 series hp (green) 158gr. Again the large hp is for slower speeds (+/- 800fps)
Lyman 358439 158gr hp (red) with the typical 1/8" hp pin/hole. Typically they work best in the +/- 1000fps range depending on alloy.
Cramer #26 158gr hp, cramer's version of the keith bullet that has a cone shaped hp (.125" down to a point). The hp design is better for hv loads then the lyman design.
Lyman 358156 152gr hp (far right) this is a special order mold with the larger .140" hp pin for slower loads (+/- 800fps

Bottom row:
Lyman 358477 145gr hp (red/left) with the typical .125" hp hole. Again alloy dependent +/- 1000fps.
Cramer "hunter" (center) 158gr fn hp Note the small hp hole along with the in being cone shaped. This bullet was specifically designed by cramer to hunt with at higher velocities (+/- 1200fps)
H&G #51 150gr hp has a typical .125" hp hole/pin design of the lyman molds. It also has the same alloy dependency that pin brings to the table.

A link to may 1953 American rifleman article on expanding bullets for the 44spl. A lot can be learned from this article. It shows the hp cavities shapes/designs/depths of the bullets tested via pictures bullets cut in 1/2. It also has pictures of those same bullets recovered after being shot into test media with speeds of 600fps/800fps/1000fps/1200fps. Using 40 to 1 (8bhn), 20 to 1 (10bhn) & 10 to 1 (12bhn) alloy.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...20rifleman.pdf

Myself I start with a simple formula of 1bhn ='s 100fps to start testing with. Meaning a 10bhn bullet would start it's testing at +/- 1000fps.

The real limiting factor for cast hp bullets is the design/shape/size of the hp itself. I mainly run cast lead hp's in revolvers/pistols up to 1200fps depending on design or what the hp bullet will be used for. Over 1200fps that cupped hp's really shine or a +/- 12bhn alloy cast bullet will work.

On a side note:
A lot of people worry about over penetration (with good reason) with some of their cast bullets/loads. The huge hp's and soft alloy tend to minimize this. Most of my casting/shooting is done with 8/9bhn range scrap alloy (since 1990). Shot a lot of things with those cast bullets with that 8/9bhn alloy. Sorta give you a different perspective. Things like this come up, was playing around with a ppc revolver at the bowling pin table, a 800fps load using that 8/9bhn alloy. You want to hit a bowling pin in the trade-mark, they are solid there and it drives them strait back off the table. Anyway a 800fps 148gr cast hbwc 8/9bhn hit on a bowling pin.
[IMG][/IMG]

What that 148gr 8/9bhn cast hbwc looked like after I dug it out of that bowling pin.
[IMG][/IMG]

That nose started to flatten out nicely!!! My 170gr fn 12bhn bullets look the same way when driven up to 1400fps+ and are real thumpers.

As you can see the 1bhn ='s 100fps applies to plain/standard nosed/non hp bullets also.

[Buck Shot]

Thank you, 358429 and especially Forrest R ... this is very helpful information and I will try your suggestions. Forrest R, that's good news about the soft range scrap alloy performing so well, since I can be kinda stingy with my solder! Thanks also for that American Rifleman article -- that's just the kind of info I was looking for with my original post.

[Buck Shot]

OK, here's one thing I learned that may be of use to other newbies to HP casting:

1. These brass molds really soak up a LOT of BTUs before they get hot. I guess brass has a much higher "specific heat" than the aluminum or steel molds that I'm accustomed to. You really need to put them on a hot plate or something to get them heated up before casting.

2. DO NOT count on using the heat of the molten lead to heat up your molds if using HP pins. Although this has worked fine for me in the past using NON-hollow-point molds, with the hollow-point molds, the bullets stick on the HP pins, forcing you to jack around prying the boolits off the pins so you can remelt them and try again. This process is so tedious and time-consuming, that the mold cools off while you screw around with pliers, etc., and you will NEVER get your mold up to temperature this way. I plan to use a hot plate or propane burner, along with an IR thermometer, for my next attempt. (Just as an experiment, I tried preheating my cold brass mold over a propane flame on the kitchen stove, and it took a surprisingly long time -- over a minute with the gas flame at MAX -- to even get WARM to the touch.)

Once you get the mold up to proper temperature, you may be able to cast fast enough to keep the mold at the proper temperature using only the heat from the molten lead, but for the initial preheat, don't depend on doing it with molten lead alone, at least not in the winter like it is here...