358-429 HP -- What speed and alloy?

[Buck Shot]

Hey, all,

Miha at MP molds just emailed me to tell me their 358-429 Keith style HP mold is back in stock, so I bought one (I ordered the plain base version). I'd like to use this boolit for short-range deer hunting and SD in my 357 revolver.



Can anyone tell me what alloy you use, and what velocity you typically shoot for, for using such a boolit out of a 5" revolver? I would like to get good expansion of the HP for deer hunting at 25-50 yds. Also, are there any particular powders that really stand out?

Sorry if these are common questions but I'm fairly new to bullet casting and shooting cast boolits. Thanks in advance for any info.

[zarrinvz24]

I think Elmer had a lot more experience than most even in today's era. He felt that 1200-1250 fps and 1:16 Tin/Lead was about as close to perfection as one could desire. Funny enough nearly 100 years later we are asking the same questions and finding the same answers to the questions. 1:16 is a nice elastic alloy that will allow it to mushroom and still retain nearly all its weight. As always, bullet placement is key.

One thing to advise you of regarding this boolit in .357Mag for SD is that there is a very real possibility of overpenetrating with this load. It will make an excellent hunting choice, but for SD I'd recommend one of the jacketed 125gr loads, like GoldDots - the engineering that has gone into these to ensure 100% energy expended into 18" is well worth the price. Buy a box, shoot about half so you know how it shoots and where it its, and then save the rest for carry. I lik nickel brass for this purpose.

[Buck Shot]

Thank you Zarrinvz24, sounds like that's exactly the info I need to know. I appreciate your help.

[ABJ]

The deep HP will start to expand around 900 in 20:1 and any faster will limit penetration. I agree with Zarrinvz, 16:1 at 1150/1200 should be about right. If I wanted to use the 20:1 at that speed I would only use the cup point. In self defense mode the 20:1 with the deep HP I would be comfortable with in an urban setting.
Tony

[Buck Shot]

Thank you ABJ, that makes sense.

[358429]

Make sure that the loaded overall length fits the cylinder without poking out past the end.

I trim some of my 357 mag to 1.22" and the overall length comes in right around 1.6 and fits my j frame and rifle.

I filed the lee cutter pin guess and check to hit the target length.

I size the bullets so they pass through the cylinder with one fingertips light pressure on a bic pen. Make sure all chamber mouths are the same.

For the 357 guns I size 357. For my taurus 38 special I size 358.

38 special accuracy loads I have found with 3 grains ww231, red dot, tight group, ten grains 4227.

357 accuracy loads I have found ww296 start at 15 grains, imr4227 start at 12.5 grains and work up.


I am target shooting not hunting. The 296 loads clock average 1075-1105 ft/s from the 2.25" j frame. I am using the deepest hollowpoint pins and my alloy the bullets scale approximately 155 grains.

Hope this helps.
Be safe.

[Buck Shot]

This is all good helpful information, thank you 358429 ... was kind of hoping you'd weigh in.

On a related note, I just found some H110 in stock at PV...I should play the lottery!

[gwpercle]

I'm looking at Elmer's 1936 book on reloading Revolver Cartridges .
He recommends :
1 part tin / 20 parts lead up to 1,000 fps
1 part tin / 16 parts lead over 1, 000 fps

But ... this was with plain based , uncoated and with 1930's bullet lube boolits .
You have a leg up on the deal ... A Gas Check , possibly coating but at least realy good modern bullet lube ... therefore you might easily use 1/20 in that HP boolit.
Another good alloy that expands on game is 50-50 mix Clip On Wheel Weights and Soft Lead (range scrap or stick on wheel weights) ...this works well in hunting loads and is easy to mix , if you have wheel weights .
Powders in hunting loads Elmer favored 2400 but now we also have H110 , Acc #7 , Acc #9 , all very good for heavy hunting loads ... look for them all - buy what ever you can get !
Gary

[358429]

Forget to mention: I am also powdercoating to protect against leading. I

use eastwood clear and ford light blue so far with excellent results. Others use smokes powders with excellent results.

Side note...The j frame with those hollow pointed ww296 mag loads smacks the

ar500 plate wayy harder than my buddies 1911 shooting regular 230 grain ball.

I would try whatever lead you have and test for accuracy and leading if fill out and detail are good.

That mold also likes to run really hot for function, and polishing the pins on a wire

wheel or steel wool #0000 is helpful if they stick to the pins. Periodically while casting

Wipe the mold with a clean cotton rag with synthetic two cycle oil dabbed onto it

To wipe off tinning or lead smears, and to provide lubrication.

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. Buck Shot- I use this bullet in my .38/44 Smith & Wesson 5 1/2" Heavy Duty revolver; my mold is the Lyman 358439 hollow point version and also the solid 358429 version in 1:16 alloy. I can't shoot these bullets in my .357 Model 27 as the cylinder is too short to accommodate them, but they work fine in the .38 Special Heavy Duty. Maybe the Miha mold has been altered to have a shorter nose than the Lyman bullets so as to fit in all .357 Magnum chambers but if not you may have troubles using this bullet in many .357 magnum revolvers. At any rate for the .38/44 so far I have loaded for 1000 fps with 6 grains of Unique (unsafe for standard .38 Specials) and plan to work on Power Pistol, 2400, and HS-6 powder loads also in order to get up to 1100 fps or above. For the .357 Magnum I will work with the shorter Lyman 358156 bullets. Good luck, Bob

[NEKVT]

Make sure that the loaded overall length fits the cylinder without poking out past the end.

I trim some of my 357 mag to 1.22" and the overall length comes in right around 1.6 and fits my j frame and rifle.

I filed the lee cutter pin guess and check to hit the target length.

I size the bullets so they pass through the cylinder with one fingertips light pressure on a bic pen. Make sure all chamber mouths are the same.

For the 357 guns I size 357. For my taurus 38 special I size 358.

38 special accuracy loads I have found with 3 grains ww231, red dot, tight group, ten grains 4227.

357 accuracy loads I have found ww296 start at 15 grains, imr4227 start at 12.5 grains and work up.


I am target shooting not hunting. The 296 loads clock average 1075-1105 ft/s from the 2.25" j frame. I am using the deepest hollowpoint pins and my alloy the bullets scale approximately 155 grains.

Hope this helps.
Be safe.

Thanks for this info. Been wanting to try the 358429 in cut down 357 cases in my 1894C. You saved me the trim and measure exercise. Also thought 4227 might end up being the accuracy load without pushing the plain base boolit too fast. And have a Ruger 357 LCR to try it in as well.

[Buck Shot]

Mr. Buck Shot- I use this bullet in my .38/44 Smith & Wesson 5 1/2" Heavy Duty revolver; my mold is the Lyman 358439 hollow point version and also the solid 358429 version in 1:16 alloy. I can't shoot these bullets in my .357 Model 27 as the cylinder is too short to accommodate them, but they work fine in the .38 Special Heavy Duty. Maybe the Miha mold has been altered to have a shorter nose than the Lyman bullets so as to fit in all .357 Magnum chambers but if not you may have troubles using this bullet in many .357 magnum revolvers. At any rate for the .38/44 so far I have loaded for 1000 fps with 6 grains of Unique (unsafe for standard .38 Specials) and plan to work on Power Pistol, 2400, and HS-6 powder loads also in order to get up to 1100 fps or above. For the .357 Magnum I will work with the shorter Lyman 358156 bullets. Good luck, Bob

Thank you sir. I'll be using these in a GP-100...I did not think about the "too long" issue...I hope it doesn't cause me problems! Looks like my cylinder is about 1.609" long, and the gap between cylinder and barrel is 6 or 8 mils if I recall right...

[metricmonkeywrench]

My true Lyman 358439HP (and it newer brother the 358429HP) come in at right around 150g or so matching what i found in the old references (Lyman #40 i think)

there is also a great write up here:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell38KeithHP358439.htm

[rintinglen]

Lymans data in the #3 Cast Bullet Handbook for the 358-429 is based on an OAL of 1.590, achieved by crimping on the forward edge of the front driving band. This should work in any 357 revolver.

[Buck Shot]

Lymans data in the #3 Cast Bullet Handbook for the 358-429 is based on an OAL of 1.590, achieved by crimping on the forward edge of the front driving band. This should work in any 357 revolver.

Thanks, Rintinglen, good to know. And even if I did run into problems with length, in a worst-case scenario, I could always trim (and segregate) my 357 cases to a length that would both allow crimping into the crimping groove and not interfere with cylinder rotation ... then reduce charge appropriately and work back up to a load that works that way, right? Not ideal, I know, but since I'd only be using these in one firearm...

[358429]

Buck shot that bullet was designed to be easily loaded and shot in 38 special brass with no work arounds needed.

Do you have a bunch of 38 brass preferably r-p or federal or anything else with thin walls so it's easy to work with?

Can you safely work up a 38+P or 38/44 outdoorsman type of loading and keep them away from 38 special revolvers?

[Buck Shot]

Buck shot that bullet was designed to be easily loaded and shot in 38 special brass with no work arounds needed.

Do you have a bunch of 38 brass preferably r-p or federal or anything else with thin walls so it's easy to work with?

Can you safely work up a 38+P or 38/44 outdoorsman type of loading and keep them away from 38 special revolvers?

Thanks, 358429, good to know that's an option. I would prefer to stick to 357 cases if possible, though... golly, just checked the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and saw under bullet 358429 that the H110 load is "potentially the most accurate load"...and I just lucked onto some H110 this week. I really DO need to play the lottery.

[358429]

Hey buck shot what kind of expander are you using to open the case mouths?

I use the lee universal expander, been thinking about noe bushings, not sure which one I should get.

[Buck Shot]

Hey buck shot what kind of expander are you using to open the case mouths?

I use the lee universal expander, been thinking about noe bushings, not sure which one I should get.

I've just been using the one that came with my RCBS 3-die set so far, although all I've really loaded is WCs and SWCs for 38 Spl. Haven't loaded up any 357 stuff yet, and it appears my mold is tied up with the gendarmeries in Charles De Gaulle Airport, maybe they'll come after me for trying to import "munitions."

[megasupermagnum]

Good, you have the 5" GP100, Lipsey's special. I have two, one in 327 federal, and one in 357 magnum. They are easily my favorite model of any revolver. They will handle a cartridge OAL of about 1.650", and with this bullet crimped in 357 magnum brass, mine are 1.645". A touch longer wouldn't hurt, but I like a little safety margin for bullet pull.

I also love the 358429 in any 357 magnum, and my GP100 loves them. I have the NOE version. Besides the flat point, mine has a shallow HP which is probably closest to your cup point, and a deep HP, which is bigger than your large HP. As stated, the large HP's expand like mad. They are just the ticket for 38 special, or a snub nose 357 magnum. For your purposes, you are going to want either the cup point or the shallow HP.

Cast of 20:1, my shallow HP, which is close to your cup point, shot with 10 gr Bluedot for about 1225 fps, produces what amounts to a rivet. I've shot them into dirt, water, and wood, and all three show a bullet that expands to about .45" rivet, but does not fold open like a mushroom. This is a great choice for a combo of both expansion and penetration. The more animals I hunt, the less interested in penetration I become. Your shallow HP is very similar in profile to the bullet I use in 327 federal, and that bullet performs very well. Honestly you can't go wrong, but either your cup or shallow HP is going to do what you want the best in my opinion. Cast them of a lead-tin alloy, 20:1 or 16:1 being great choices. A lead-tin-antimony alloy can work, but you have to be more careful that they don't become brittle. Binary alloys are simple, and their toughness can not be beat. Velocity wise, I'd say keep it at least 1100 fps to ensure expansion, but you can't drive them fast enough to cause a problem with over expansion. The fastest I can get in my GP100 was 1350 fps with H110 and 300-MP but at that level, you may not get good accuracy. Or maybe you will.

Use the following loads at your own risk.

For loads I know work well, I like 10 gr bluedot, about 1225 fps. Many also report good results with 9.5 gr bluedot. I use a Federal standard primer. 15 gr H110 is another good load, close to the same speed, about 1250 fps. I used CCI magnum primers with H110. Since Hodgdon has decided to get so weird, I'm currently trying to move away from their powders. Alliants 300-MP is a powder I'm currently working with. I'm finding good accuracy at 17.5 gr for about 1240 fps, but a consistent problem I'm finding with this powder is high velocity ES's of 70-80 fps. Despite that, they shoot good on target. I think more trials with different primers is needed.