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Thread: What I've learned with Air Guns Though 55 years OR... How I fell Into the PCP Pit

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Oct 2009
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    Northern Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by chutesnreloads View Post
    You are correct about the air guns and chronograph. By now I've come to understand the chronograph readings and what is learned
    from it are more a math equation on paper than real world application. I have the chronograph so use it, now more to compare
    power compared to manufacturers stated claims and against other known air guns. I plan to post chronograph numbers collected by the end of all this. I think it may be useful to some new at this to decide on purchases and to not be disappointed with what they do get.
    After making inquiries elsewhere it appears my hopes of using a sizer to get more variety in useful pellets will not pan out.
    I'd hoped a couple pellets in particular could be made to shoot without the wild fliers that mess up what appears to be nice groups.
    From what I've learned the sizer helps those benchrest types wanting to shave a fraction off the itty bitty groups they are already shooting.
    No help to the rest of us average folk.
    BTW, I'm sure I spend less time "fun" shooting than others so I've not found the hand pump to be such a burden. However I do plan on getting either a tank or compressor eventually. For me, once I've found what a gun likes to be fed, I'll set up targets at known distances and shoot
    a few groups to confirm zero and see that yes, I can still do that. Or set up targets at unknown random distances (rather I shoot from random unknown distances) to learn where a particular pellet/load combination hits at different distances so I will know proper hold over/under to
    place my shots where needed. This latter is particularly helpful with springers to know what happens with different shooting positions as we
    know they can be quite hold sensitive. A lot of practice initially but later pays off taking guess work out of making clean shots on critters
    You are right about springers being hold sensitive. Another reason I got rid of mine. My little pea brain could not handle different hold points for different set ups. Not a big deal plinking at a plate off hand, but I use different ways to steady the gun when shooting critters.

    Great to hear you can handle a hand pump as that is the cheapest way to shoot. I envy you. My old body is not up to it. Be wary of the cheap electric pumps if you decide to buy one. Mixed reviews on many of them.

    If you are looking at an entry level PCP, I am averaging sub 1" groups at 50 yards with the DAR. It is just as quiet, if not quieter, than my moderated Daysate.
    https://www.dynamicairrifles.com/products

    I have heard good things about the Avenger as well:
    https://www.airgundepot.com/air-vent...#AGD-513610278

    You do not need to spend $1000 to get a decent PCP rifle. I found spending some time at the Gateway to Airguns forum very helpful. Like this site, I prefer to hear from real people about how their guns perform instead of what gets published by the gun rags. But same "issues" there as on this site...folks who post a "wallet' group and do not share the whole story. After a few weeks you know who to listen to. When I wanted to tune the trigger on the DAR, I got good advice.

    Looking forward to seeing what you end up and your report. Your granddaughter will have a blast!!! Never met a kid that did not like to shoot.
    Don Verna


  2. #22
    Boolit Master chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    One item left out about the 392. I'd had the idea loads could be worked up like with powder burners. More pumps = more powder.
    To find the sweet spot as far as accuracy. Possibly because only one pellet was worthy of measuring its groups that didn't pan
    out. All measured groups regardless of velocities were pretty much the same. The groups changed impact vertically is the only real
    change. It would take a LOT of shooting and measuring to find a difference and at the longest distances this pellet can be used,
    it isn't enough difference to make a difference.
    By now I've got a aluminium breech on the 1377 and mounted a scope. This one is'nt so pellet picky. The cheap daisy wadcutter shoot
    well at maximum (10) pumps but only so so at 4. The RWS wadcutters on the other hand shoot better at 4 pumps than at max and these are again the most accurate pellet with the Crosman Premiers a strong second. The Premiers are little affected by number of pumps

  3. #23
    Boolit Master chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    As I was deciding on the new rifle, I picked up a nice new scope for the gas springer and another new pellet to try in it and the Benji 392.
    After hearing good things about the Hawke Airmax line as far as holding up to heavy recoiling springers I got a 4x12x40.
    The new pellet is the H&N Field Target Trophy at 14.66 grains. While the 392 initially looked like a nice group although way off to the
    left, after enough shots, again I'm getting a few into a great group with a few to half into wild unexplained flyers. The gas springer
    on the other hand loves them. Nearly as good groups as its favorite wadcutter at 20 yards. I find a calm enough day to take it out to
    50 yards. Finally getting decent groups at 50 yards. But does it need some hold over! Much past 30 yards and accurate range measurement
    is a must. I just can't see using it any differently than I have been, critter control at 30 yards or less. Shooting any farther will be just
    for fun for the most part. The scope is nice. Very clear glass and a nice and wider field of view than I'd been used to. The AMX reticle
    I have likes and dislikes. The reticle is very fine lined which is great shooting paper but can get kinda lost shooting at critters up in
    a bunch of shady brush. Overall, I like it though.
    Time to get serious about the new rifle. By now I've pretty much decided to go the PCP route. But I have concerns and here they are:

    Will it hold air for extended periods? Remember this is mainly a back yard pest control rifle. Like the springer I should be able to just pick it up cock it and be ready to shoot. The springer I keep a pellet in the chamber but uncocked. I will expect enough air for at least two reliable shots.
    More is better.

    I really want a better trigger than I've dealt with on the budget friendly springers. It needn't be a match trigger but it must be significantly better.

    I'll start out using a hand pump so concerned about how hard it will be to pump and how many shots per fill.

    Lastly I'm concerned how much maintenance will be required to keep it working as advertised.

    I decided on a .22 Umarex Origin. I've seen some good reviews and it's fairly simple design seems like a good 1st PCP.
    Even better, it comes with a pump. While not expecting to need to use them, it's reputed to shoot slugs accurately.
    I've had it for a month now and so far not displeased with it at all. It will take time to test and learn the ins and outs.
    Think a new thread is needed as I evaluate the new rifle. I do want to make at least one more post here giving chronograph
    records of the different guns. It may be helpful to a few for comparisons. I'll try and get that posted soon

  4. #24
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Location
    Greene County IL
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    I blew up a Hawke vantage scope on a Diana 48 magnum springer. Hawke was very prompt on repairing and returning the scope, I would highly recommend them based on their customer service. And the Airmax is indeed a much better choice for a powerful springer.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    Some Chronograph data just for comparison for those interested in numbers:

    Keep in mind these were gathered over a 24 year time span with two different chronographs. When the second chrony was first set
    up I did run some of the same pellets from same guns over it and they were right in the same ballpark.

    1970's vintage Benjamin model 347 in .177. @ Ten pumps
    Marksman 7.1 grain Wadcutter Hollow point: Average velocity 639 fps ME 6.43 ft. lbs.
    By this time the rifle was at least 20 years old. Was probably more powerful new. Still pretty accurate though

    Crosman 1377. This was the pellet pistol I used in Alaska with not so good success 18 years old now
    Marksman 7.1 grain HPWC : Average with 10 pumps 511 fps ME 4.11 ft. lbs

    Beeman GS 1000 .177
    This was a Spanish made entry level spring piston rifle rated at 1000 fps
    Marksman 7.1 grain HPWC Average velocity 844.7 fps ME 11.25 ft. lbs.
    Crosman Premier 7.9 grain 794.2 fps 11.06 ft. lbs. * Most Accurate
    Crosman Premier 10.5 gr. 649.9 fps 9.85 ft. lbs.
    Beeman Kodiak 10.6 gr. 660.14 10.25 ft. lbs.
    Beeman Crow Magnum 8.8 gr. 757.12 11.20 ft. lbs.


    Benjamin Nitro Piston "gas spring" .22
    RWS Wadcutter 14 gr. Average Velocity: 714 fps. 15.85 ft. lbs. * Most Accurate Pellet
    H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 gr. 610 fps. 15.04 ft. lbs.
    Crosman Premier 14.3 gr. 695 fps. 15.35 ft. lbs.
    Beeman Kodiak 21.14 gr. 567 fps. 15.09 ft. lbs.

    Benjamin 392 .22
    RWS Wadcutter 14.0 gr. 6 pumps 595.5 fps. 11.04 ft. lbs.
    8 pumps 640.3 fps. 12.74 ft. lbs.
    Crosman Premier 14.3 6 pumps 585 fps. 10.64 ft. lbs.
    8 pumps 634 fps. 12.76 ft. lbs.
    H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 gr. 6 pumps 535 fps. 12.20 ft. lbs.
    8 pumps 581 fps 13.64 ft. lbs.
    Beeman Kodiak 21.14 gr. 8 pumps 545 fps. 13,94 ft. lbs.


    Umarex Origin .22 Fill to 3200-1900 psi. Hammer spring backed off 2 full turns from max

    Crosman Premier 14.3 gr. Average Velocity 1008 fps. ME 32.27 ft. lbs. * Most Accurate Pellet
    Beeman Kodiak 21.14 gr, 888 fps 37.02 ft. lbs.

    Hammer spring backed off 4 turns from max
    Crosman Premier 14.3 gr. 938.8 fps. 27.99 ft.lbs.

    Hammer spring turned all the way in to max power
    Beeman Kodiak 21.14 gr. 942 fps. 41.66 ft. lbs.
    H&N Rabbit Magnum II 25.62 gr. 924 fps. 48.58 ft. lbs.
    H&N Slug 23 gr. 940 fps. 45.13 ft. lbs. * Much flatter trajectory than ANY of the pellets


    Notice how the spring piston types lost ME as pellet weight increased. By my calculations the higher BC of the heavier pellets take
    well over 50 yards to match the faster lighter pellets.
    With the multi pump and PCP the heavier pellets surpassed the lighter ones in ME right from the muzzle. I wonder if this trend holds
    for all spring piston types or is it only the ones I tested?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check