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Thread: Argentine Mauser from 30-06

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Argentine Mauser from 30-06

    Rifle is an 1891 Engineers carbine.

    Used an old Pacific die set to form some 7.65x53 from Win 30-06 brass. Annealed before forming, reamed necks to thin them after forming. Easy chambering and extraction. I'm aware the Pacific die is among the shorter ones, so I raised the die to ensure shoulder dimension was in the 1.816 range (vs screwed down with shell holder touching die is ~1.789 iirc). Loading was a breeze. Imr3031 40-42gr, 150gr hornady. Shot well.

    BUT.... after firing, I'm getting a sharp line at the shoulder.

    In the pics, the row of cases are all fired except the far right; the far right case is as-formed.

    It's not necessarily 'sharp' but I would imagine this will become an issue, if not now, then if I try to fire these again.

    What gives?

    Closest thing I found online is this...
    https://www.carolinashootersclub.com...oulder.223978/


    Here are my pics
    Last edited by CoRifleman; 12-03-2021 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I would suspect a sharp anomaly within the chamber. With care, I'd prepare a device that mirrors the proper cartridge and use it to polish down the interior of the chamber. got any good bore scope or something to look in there? If this occurred before firing, I'd think it to be something about the dies, but after firing, ..............?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Jim22's Avatar
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    Take a piece of spring wire, sharpen a point on one end, bend that end into a 90 degree angle so it will fit in the neck and touch the inside of the case. Put it into the case mouth and feel to see if the ring is on the inside as well. If t is the case is about to separate at that line. If not there is less concern. We used to do that when there was a similar ring near the base to see if we were about to have a head separation.

    Jim

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim22 View Post
    Take a piece of spring wire, sharpen a point on one end, bend that end into a 90 degree angle so it will fit in the neck and touch the inside of the case. Put it into the case mouth and feel to see if the ring is on the inside as well. If t is the case is about to separate at that line. If not there is less concern. We used to do that when there was a similar ring near the base to see if we were about to have a head separation.

    Jim
    Doesn't seem to be a ring inside the cartridge that I can feel. I'm going to measure the fired shoulder dimension tonight.

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by 725 View Post
    I would suspect a sharp anomaly within the chamber. With care, I'd prepare a device that mirrors the proper cartridge and use it to polish down the interior of the chamber. got any good bore scope or something to look in there? If this occurred before firing, I'd think it to be something about the dies, but after firing, ..............?
    A borescope would help here, I may run down a gunsmith for this one if it's a chamber issue.

  6. #6
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    Texas by God's Avatar
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    Try some true 7.65 brass and see if the ring appears on the fired cases. If not, and your reformed 06 cases work normally; no worries in my opinion.

    Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Try some true 7.65 brass and see if the ring appears on the fired cases. If not, and your reformed 06 cases work normally; no worries in my opinion.

    Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk
    I've got some hornady factory loaded I'll try. I guess I'm hoping it IS the chamber and then I can find a course of action.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    LOOKS like the shoulder may have been set back too far and the brass was not annealed in the shoulder area. Just one possibility, there are others.

    A chamber cast or borescope inspection should show if it is a chamber issue. Definitely try the factory loads, one or two shots should be enough to show a defective chamber.
    Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master



    skeettx's Avatar
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    Looking on with interest
    I see no current safety issues
    Neck size, load again and see if anything changes
    Mike
    NRA Benefactor 2004 USAF RET 1971-95

  10. #10
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    Have you checked the headspace?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I have made 100ths, of them out of your parent brass and never seen or had this occur. strange!

  12. #12
    Boolit Master AntiqueSledMan's Avatar
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    Hello CoRifleman,

    Is there something in your chamber causing the defect?

    I've not seen anything like that when I formed them.
    But I did turn the necks. The left case has been fired,
    the right case is just formed with neck turned.
    The shoulder does sharpen up after firing.

    AntiqueSledMan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7.65x53 Formed.jpg  

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub
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    Took some measurements of the fired cartridges today.

    I have not yet fired the hornady factory ammo in it, but based on measurements I'm not sure I need to...

    I ran a sharpened spring wire in chamber edge, could feel no obvious lip, but don't have a boroscope to verify.

    I think it may be a headspace issue, or just and overly large chamber...

    A thread for reference... https://www.gunboards.com/threads/7-...ellany.393661/

    My measurements were eye-opening and perhaps definitive.

    Ok, using the .375 bushing here are my readings...

    Unfired Hornady frontier brass cartridge loaded by hornady, #80489 :::
    1.8125, 1.8130, 1.8140

    Formed by Pacific die raised to lessen shoulder bump per previous research here and gunboards threads :::
    1.8165, 1.8170

    Formed by Pacific die while touching shellholder :::
    1.789, 1.790

    Drum roll... Fired WW 30-06 converted cases with detented ring at shoulder area :::
    1.8255, 1.8250, 1.8240
    Note: these cases will all chamber without effort after firing!

    Now, if I put a piece of scotch tape on the base of the fired cartridge, the measurement changes to 1.827 and it chambers with mild difficulty.

    I'm pretty green here. I'm assuming this thing has a monstrous chamber. Can I simple re-anneal these past the shoulder to soften them and fire them again to "fireform" them and then reset my die to only slightly move the shoulder back (to 1.825ish) for ease of chambering and record all data to load this rifle specifically? (The bolt is matching, with no obvious flaws or galling.)

    I've put a lot of time into bringing this rifle back to life, and she was a pleasure to shoot.

    Thank you all.

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    50yd iron sights. The carbine sight rear notch is smaller than the long rifle by a considerable amount, if you can believe that.

    Hornady 150gr SP interlock
    40-42gr imr3031

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    This thread has plenty of blueprints and information for the 7.65 cartridge.

    https://www.gunboards.com/threads/ma...bster.1096545/

    As for headspace gauges:

    https://mansonreamers.files.wordpres...nformation.pdf

  16. #16
    Boolit Bub
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    Willy thank you, I found the same headspace document as I was searching. I guess what I'm trying to determine now... Is a case that I've sized to the .375 datum line at 1.8250, which chambers freely and is 2 thou below a case that chambers with resistance (1.8270), an acceptable solution for an old rifle that has a large chamber and 'safe' with normal loads? Can I assume the gun just had a large chamber from the get? The barrel is original and is beautiful inside.

    I'm tempted to scrap the "ringed" brass under the assumption that stretching to fit the long chamber caused the ring, form a new batch of five or so cartridges to the 1.8250 shoulder spec and give her a whirl with a 41-42gr charge of i3031.

    I'm looking for the community feel on this plan.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulav8r View Post
    LOOKS like the shoulder may have been set back too far and the brass was not annealed in the shoulder area. Just one possibility, there are others.

    A chamber cast or borescope inspection should show if it is a chamber issue. Definitely try the factory loads, one or two shots should be enough to show a defective chamber.
    Yes, see my measurements above, although not set too far back according to a couple sources (although the Arg chamber seems to be a moving target), but simply set too far back according to my specific chamber on this rifle.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeettx View Post
    Looking on with interest
    I see no current safety issues
    Neck size, load again and see if anything changes
    Mike
    Forming new brass to 1.8250 is the same essentially as necksizing these fired cases, so am weighing this approach. New brass is simple enough to make. Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by smithnframe View Post
    Have you checked the headspace?
    See above, measuring the fired cases is as close as I can get to a true headspace at this point, with the addition of the single scotch tape layer. Bush, I know thank you.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I'd be leery of shooting that ringed brass again without a broken case extractor handy. There is the possibility that a subsequent firing might cause the case neck/shoulder to separate and lodge in the chamber. This probably won't injure you or the rifle, but will be a hassle to remove. Here's my recommendation: Toss out the ringed brass. When you reform new cases load them with your boolits seated long. You want the boolit to engage the rifling so that it will prevent any forward movement of the cartridge during firing. Use a charge of powder appropriate for case forming. If the boolit is slightly pushed back into the case during chambering that should still be OK as the intent is to fire form the case to your chamber, and the goal is to hold the case with it's base against the face of the bolt. Upon firing the case should expand to match the contours of the chamber. After that you can reload either by neck sizing or just barely bumping the shoulder, and the cartridge should headspace in your chamber.
    Note: Those cases will match to that rifle. If you own more than one gun in 7.65x53 you need to keep these round separate and only use them in the rifle that you formed them for.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master
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    It has been a long time since I had a 7.65x53 that I formed brass from .30-06 for. You did ream the necks before loading, that is a good thing; in my experience either reaming or outside turning is required.

    What I would do is form some new cases with the rifle there to try them in. Form until there is a slight resistance when closing the bolt. This way you don't have to try to load a projectile out to jam into the lands for headspace control.

    Robert

  20. #20
    Boolit Master



    skeettx's Avatar
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    The fired cases have been fire-formed
    Neck size and load
    Shoot
    Have fun
    Mike
    NRA Benefactor 2004 USAF RET 1971-95

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check