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Thread: Seating for OAL

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister View Post
    OK think about this for a minute. You are applying a crimp to the case. Not the ogive of the nose. Not the diameter of the nose. Just the body of the bullet.

    Look at post #18. You are speaking about a case gauge, not a cartridge or chamber gauge. That is why you use a case gauge to check prepped brass and the chamber of the firearm for correct fit of the loaded round. You will get it, just takes time sometimes. I thought we visited about this earlier, maybe not.
    We maybe did visit it earlier and I may have missed it. Sorry. Just seems like a lot to understand. I do understand that the barrel should be the deciding factor and not the case guage when determining a finished round and how it will function in a given Firearm. I guess in all the YouTube videos I've watched it shows everyone loading a bunch of rounds once all the dies have been adjusted and then they proceed to drop them all in the guage to see if they pass the plunk test. I think I need to watch someone in real time on the proper technique on what to do and what NOT to do.

  2. #22
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    You will make it. Just remember that these gauges were made for jacketed bullets, and have been used for cast bullets for years. Only recently have things become even more complicated with the build up of powder coating cast bullets. Stick with it.

  3. #23
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    My process:

    First load a dummy, no primer, no charge. Check for plunk test, feeding from the mag, etc. Adjust OAL and make another dummy for testing as necessary. Once that's settles, I have my OAL.

    Make a ladder. Start at the min load, figure out good steps in charge (in this case it would be 0.1 or 0.2), and fill out a load sheet for the ladder. I have one for this that's 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8.

    Load 10 rounds at each charge, with everything else the same (headstamp, primer, bullet, OAL, etc).

    Go test fire those, one set per target, from lightest to hottest charge, checking for proper function/cycle, consistency, and pressure signs. Record EVERYTHING.

    I'll use a sharpie or paint pens to mark the sets so I know which one I'm shooting, and I'll put the same mark on each target so I can be sure I'm looking at the right groups. I'll cut those groups out and tape them onto the load sheet.

    Sometimes I'll do the same sets with different sized slugs, so I end up doing 2-3 times as many test loads. Sometimes I take velocity, mostly I don't on pistols.

    From there I evaluate which was the "best" load, and I give that load it's own sheet in my list of "known good" loads.



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  4. #24
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    I guess in all the YouTube videos I've watched it shows everyone loading a bunch of rounds once all the dies have been adjusted and then they proceed to drop them all in the guage to see if they pass the plunk test.
    They already did many plunk tests and adjustments before they loaded a bunch. The case gauge check is the final Quality Control check, especially for those who compete and can not tolerate an occasional failure to feed/fire.

    Not too long ago I worked long and hard doing plunks and adjusting to get my 9mm dies set just right. I did not gauge check every round afterwards as I was certain I had everything set up just right. At the range I had a few that wouldn't chamber without being forced. Turned out everyone of the cases that didn't chamber correctly carried the same head stamp (don't recall which head stamp at the moment). Measured some cases and found the non-chambering cases had thicker case walls than all others. I now sort and toss those thick walled cases AND gauge check every completed round one at a time.
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  5. #25
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    Holy crap ...so much goes into this. I think I'll have to start making better notes. So is trimming every pistol case necessary? Also I think part of my problem is I don't sort for head stamp. I just load a bunch of mixed cases.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    Oh boy I have so much to learn. So wouldn't " undersized " cause it to NOT stick in the guage/barrel?
    Put the case gauge in the drawer and forget it. Really. It's just confusing things. I made the same mistake.

    The chamber of your gun is attached to the barrel. The barrel has rifiling that the nose of the bullet can touch if it's seated too long. The case gauge does not.

    After decades of reloading, I recently added a new caliber. 45ACP and thought it would be easy peasy. It's just an oversized 9mm, right? And I've loaded truckloads of 9mm. Wrong.

    I ran into a very similar problem to yours because my shiny new 1911 had no freebore. Meaning that full diameter rifiling starts RIGHT where the chamber ends (add to this I wasn't using quite the right bullet)

    In the below pic, the case on the right has a little slot cut into it (and there's one on the other side). I tinkered with that case, expanding the case mouth until the bullet would start. I then inserted it into the chamber of my 1911 until it stopped. The case was fully seated and where I wanted it in relation to the barrel hood. I then went in the muzzle end with a wooden dowel and gently pushed the dummy round out. I now know that with that particular bullet, it touches the lands at 1.222". I set my COAL at 1.210 and no more problems. If you try this, start with a sized case that drops in and out of the chamber freely.

    I haven't read through this whole thread but it has a graphic in post #5 that may help:
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...9mm-plunk-test
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 45acp-452-228.jpg  

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    Holy crap ...so much goes into this. I think I'll have to start making better notes. So is trimming every pistol case necessary? Also I think part of my problem is I don't sort for head stamp. I just load a bunch of mixed cases.
    When I get brass I haven't processed before, I'll put them all through the trimmer to a target length. Some will be shorter, the cutter won't even touch them, but none longer. After that I don't worry about length unless I know I've fired them several times.

    I do sort for head stamp. Case wall thickness varies, which can make your charge hotter or lighter due to the change in volume. Less about safety than about consistency. I don't sort LC brass by year or anything, but I try to load all win, or all LC, or all Rem in a single session. Also use the same primer for the same session. If I change anything as significant as the primer, I start a new sheet; it's a new load.

    I have 2 notebooks, one big one with everything I've ever loaded in it, and a smaller one with only known good loads and whatever load I'm working up at the time.

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  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    So is trimming every pistol case necessary?
    No. Auto pistol brass does not grow. It shrinks.

    https://www.floridareloading.com/ind...-45-acp-brass/

    I do not sort 9mm brass. The only bugaboo it causes is that pressure required to seat primers and bullets varies between brands of cases.
    Last edited by AlHunt; 12-03-2021 at 05:21 PM.

  9. #29
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    First, OAL does matter, a lot. Especially in 9mm.

    It is a 'high pressure' round. If you use loads close to max from the books you need to follow their OAL spec. Too short and pressures can be way over the top.

    You can load shorter but you need to reduce the load at least to the minimum to check for pressure. Keep in mind that most pressure signs mean you are way over, not just a little.

    Case gauges. Have cast and reloaded for several decades now and never used one. I would only have one if I were loading for other people's guns. For my guns I use the chamber plunk method.

    And, yes, write down everything! Including what does not work. I made the mistake of tossing a bunch of notebook data from loads that were not my favorites. When there were powder and/or bullet shortages I had to start over on some of them. Had I kept the data it would have saved me a lot of time and effort.

    I've also lost a lot of data due to moves and reduced storage space. These days it is much easier. Just make a log in the computer. I even take pictures of targets and add them to the database. After a shooting session I open up the pictures and add notes from the range, like sequence of shots, bullet velocities, load data, wind, sight settings, etc. And, yes, I also make a backup on a USB stick (I've had a hard drive failure that cost me a lot of data as well ).

    Good luck in your reloading. Remember to enjoy the journey

  10. #30
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    Just my experience; put the gauge in a drawer and forget about it. You are shooting a handload in your gun not your gauge. Use your barrel as a gauge. I do not "crimp" any semi-auto rounds, I just "deflare" with a taper crimp die. No pushing the case mouth into the bullet, just removing any flare. Depending on the ogive shape and the gun's chamber OAL may need to be shorter than book stats. I have 5, 9mm guns, 4 can use the same OAL I started out with, but one needs a bit deeper seating. One needing a shorter OAL is my new Masada. But as with normal when I make a change that may affect pressures, I did another load work up.. I have 5, 9mm guns that feed 100% now...
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdi View Post
    Just my experience; put the gauge in a drawer and forget about it. You are shooting a handload in your gun not your gauge. Use your barrel as a gauge. I do not "crimp" any semi-auto rounds, I just "deflare" with a taper crimp die. No pushing the case mouth into the bullet, just removing any flare. Depending on the ogive shape and the gun's chamber OAL may need to be shorter than book stats. I have 5, 9mm guns, 4 can use the same OAL I started out with, but one needs a bit deeper seating. One needing a shorter OAL is my new Masada. But as with normal when I make a change that may affect pressures, I did another load work up.. I have 5, 9mm guns that feed 100% now...
    So you chamber check EVERY loaded round or are you using sorted/same head stamp cases for all of your 9MM?
    “Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” Ronald Reagan


  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    I am crimping them. Should I back off on the crimp or not crimp at all. I'm using the Lee 4 die set which includes the Factory Crimp Die.
    Over crimping can put s small bulge in the case neck. With a taper crimp, just enough to turn the case mouth back to normal from flaring or 0.001"-0.002" more.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    Just trying to learn here ...so I thought the case guage was used to determine the plunk test including the OAL. All the videos I watched shows it saying the case has to sit just below or flush with the surface of the guage.
    Nope. The case gage tells you if the loaded round fits the chamber but cant tell you OAL because there is no rifling or throat. The case gage tells you if the flare is removed & if there is any other oddity like a thick piece of brass. Example, when I load 147gr, I have to be picky about my brass. Most foreign stuff is quite thick & I get a small bulge, not much, but enough to prevent full slide lock.
    The CZ has always had a rep of zero throat, so your issue is likely OAL a bit too long. So again, make a dummy round & try it. if it doesnt fit, seat 0.010" deeper & try again. It could also be thick mixed brass, but I only have that issue with 147gr.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    Holy crap ...so much goes into this. I think I'll have to start making better notes. So is trimming every pistol case necessary? Also I think part of my problem is I don't sort for head stamp. I just load a bunch of mixed cases.
    Nope, I have NEVER trimmed a service pistol case, never. They actually can shrink a bit after repeated loading.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by oley55 View Post
    So you chamber check EVERY loaded round or are you using sorted/same head stamp cases for all of your 9MM?
    My handloads are very consistent. When I'm working up a load, I work up all aspecs of my handloads, not just powder charge, including primer, OAL, and occasionally brass Before I settle on a good bullet seating depth I plunk several rounds during set up at different times. I know/have a good idea of which gun has the "tightest" chamber so I make sure my depth settings for a particular bullet will work, plunk 100% in that gun. I record the OAL for the particular bullet and subsiquent reloads still fit. Of course I do spot checks, double check everything, along the way, but once I have determined a setting for a particular bullet I rarely need to change (but I have experimented, and mostly without going longer than my original "good OAL")...

    I understand many think OAL can differ with different brass/headstamps, but I have not found that to be the case. Often when I'm starting a new load, new components, my work up includes cases w/same headstamp, but usually after I find "The Load", I'll relax my requirements a bit (maybe allow .3-.5 gr variation in powder charge, mixed brass, seating depth to maybe .004" variation and on occasion relax a bit more.)...

    I cannot remember when my methods have failed me and I can go to my binder or computer and replicate a load I made 20 years ago. This is for my handgun handloads and my rifle/bolt gun reloads run tighter variations, specs...
    Last edited by mdi; 12-05-2021 at 01:07 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
    Over crimping can put s small bulge in the case neck. With a taper crimp, just enough to turn the case mouth back to normal from flaring or 0.001"-0.002" more.
    So I understand...would it be best to take a measurement at the empty case mouth just after the sizing die before the the flaring die and then take another measurement after the bullet is seated and adjust the Lee factory crimp die to bring the measurement back to exactly where it was when originally sized at the beginning on the empty case?

  17. #37
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    I have Lee molds for 9 mm in 124 grain tumble lube and 125 grain for lubrasizer. The 124s always gauge correctly. The 125s usually do not gauge correctly.

    No I haven't tried the 125s in the actual chamber... yet. The 124s have a smaller diameter just ahead of the lube groves which I think is the key. For the price of a Lee mold it is worth a try.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaparral66 View Post
    The 124s have a smaller diameter just ahead of the lube groves which I think is the key. For the price of a Lee mold it is worth a try.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    So I understand...would it be best to take a measurement at the empty case mouth just after the sizing die before the the flaring die and then take another measurement after the bullet is seated and adjust the Lee factory crimp die to bring the measurement back to exactly where it was when originally sized at the beginning on the empty case?
    Don't overthink deflaring. Just start with the taper crimp die barely touching a case (I normally adjust the deflaring on an empty, sized case) and lower it in small increments until there is no more flare, but no "crimp". I have no idea how many times I've done this, but I started doing it with my first 45 ACP in '88 and now have 9 semi-auto pistols in 4 calibers and have not measured one in many, many rounds/years...
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearslayer View Post
    So I understand...would it be best to take a measurement at the empty case mouth just after the sizing die before the the flaring die and then take another measurement after the bullet is seated and adjust the Lee factory crimp die to bring the measurement back to exactly where it was when originally sized at the beginning on the empty case?

    After you full-length size your case step 1 it will measure a little smaller across the case mouth , next step is expanding the case mouth so you can insert a over size cast boolit this will make the case mouth bigger so it will probably give you trouble plunking the cartridge , so to fix this you then reduced the case flair enough to easily chamber the round ( plunk test ) .
    Now is when you can over do the crimp you want the round to chamber resting on the case mouth , or the boollits just touching the rifling without squeezing your cast boolit undersized . Example a cast 9mm boolit sized at .357 + neck wall thickness of lets say . 10 thousands on each side would be =.377 this should be your end goal when adjusting to remove the flair without swaggering your cast boollits .
    I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it earlier but a expander die not just a flaring die will be very helpful when loading cast boollits .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check