Keith .44 245 grain

[kiwi]

Who makes a mold closest to Elmer Keiths 245 grain SWC .44?
I have a Lyman 4 cavity 429421 it is ok but I know it is not the same as Elmer's original design
I would like to get one as close to the original as possible.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd head over to the Precision Molds site and look there. I got what your looking for in a .45 there, bet he has one for the .44

[white eagle]

look at Miha's (MP) molds he has some
as do NOE and Accurate and @ Accurate you can design one to fill your needs

[rintinglen]

You have plenty of choices. You need only pay your money and take your pick.

Arsenal (432-264 SWC) makes one that hits all the right notes as does MP molds (432-256), and Accurate (43-250K) also has it covered. I know that NOE also made some that were true copies of the H&G 503 that represents the "true" Keith design. If I recall correctly, Al got his hands on original design notes and made some with Elmer's signature replicated on them. It's the 432-264-SWC-AT5 in his catalog.

RCBS made a copy at one time as well, the 44-250-KT, but later versions have the rounded lube groove that Keith found objectionable.

I though, think Elmer got that part wrong. The square cut lube groove design is not measurably more accurate and it is more troublesome to convince the boolits to drop from the mold. I use my 429-421 Lyman 4 cavity for most of my needs these days. and it has the round lube groove.

[MT Gianni]

I have a square groove 421 that is more accurate than the round groove it replaced. I believe it is more the shape that the cherry was in than the style.

[gwpercle]

NOE has some "real" Keith designs ... A while back I lucked up and got a 41 magnum Keith and a 38/357 "Keith Signature Series" mould ... a work of art with Elmer's signature engraved on the blocks ... I haven't used it yet ... it's just so good looking I hate to muck it up !
Gary

[longbow]

Dale53 maintains that the H&G #503 is the real Keith design. I modeled it for him from a sample of the no longer available H&G #503 bullet and Mihec made the moulds:

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-...lid-6-cav-alu/

It is 256 grs. solid though so a little heavier.

NOE's version runs 255 grs. so about the same weight:

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...ity-pb-432421/

I am sure there are many that say they are the "real" Keith bullet. My understanding is that the original Keith bullet design had 3 equal width driving bands and the square lube groove. The H&G #503 has those.

Longbow

[david s]

Noe offers a clone of the H&G 503 moulds and a version of the Lyman 429421 with the square groove. They also made a run of the mid to late 1970's Keith approved design SWC as gwpercle mentioned. I purchased the 38-41-44 and 45 versions of these. I believe Keith liked the square grease groove because it's considered to be stronger where the bullet is narrowest as opposed to the rounded groove.

[JAC43]

I would like to get one as close to the original as possible.

Well, that depends on what you know the original to be. Take a look at the 429421 Keith illustrates in Sixguns and compare that to the earliest of the Ideal molds. It's significantly different. Which is the original, if either?

https://castbulletassoc.org/download...20-%201929.pdf

And to further complicate matters, the man himself stated in writing that the H&G #503 was true to his design. Which one though, the thin front band version or the thicker one that subsequently came along?

What about the Prochko "True Keiths" that Keith signed off on? https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-Keith-Bullets

Not to mention the LBT "Authentic" Keith series that Veral says is copied directly from bullets Keith gave to a friend of his?

Will the original Keith 44 SWC please stand up?

[derek45]

ARSENAL #503 is perfection.

[hporter]

This is the NOE 44 caliber Keith bullet that was recently produced.



https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...vity-pb-keith/

It is heavier than the OP's 245 grain bullet though. With my alloy, it weighed 281 grains.





I also have the the MP #503 and the lighter NOE 429421. All shoot very well. That Arsenal mold posted above looks to be a nice design too.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Honestly now, do we really know what the "Keith" design is?
Did Elmer ever change the design?

I have a NOE mold that says "41 Keith".
Since it's 41 and not 44, is it still really a Keith?
It is a SWC with 3 equal bands...at least to my eyes they are equal

[Mal Paso]

Dale53 maintains that the H&G #503 is the real Keith design. I modeled it for him from a sample of the no longer available H&G #503 bullet and Mihec made the moulds:

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-...lid-6-cav-alu/

Thank You! I was in on the first group buy and it's my favorite.

is it still really a Keith?
It is a SWC with 3 equal bands...at least to my eyes they are equal

The 3 equal drive bands is only on the H&G #503 that appeared near the time of Elmer's death. Neither the early #503 that Elmer brought to H&G nor any original 429421s had equal drive bands.

Don't know about the 41 molds but in 44 the three equal bands may not have been Elmer's doing. The first catalogue drawing I have of it was printed after his death.

[Green Frog]

Didn't EK use the front groove as a crimping groove, leaving the front band outside of the case to better fill the grooves as it entered the barrel? The late H&G and its copy from Arsenal as well as the NOE version would work that way. Just sayin'.

Froggie

[Mal Paso]

Didn't EK use the front groove as a crimping groove, leaving the front band outside of the case to better fill the grooves as it entered the barrel? The late H&G and its copy from Arsenal as well as the NOE version would work that way. Just sayin'.

Froggie

Yep and the forward drive band of the late #503 sits just inside the throats of my Colt when chambered. I'm not so lucky with my other 44s as they moved the throats forward to prevent chambering issues. Elmer insisted on sizing .429" likely to preserve that relationship but gun manufacturers moved the throats forward anyway. Fit is King for the gun manufacturers too, if the ammo won't fit, make the hole bigger/longer. It hurts accuracy but that's secondary to making sure everyone's ammo fits the hole.

[W.R.Buchanan]

All of these boolits should shoot well. My first Keith Mould was Lyman 429421 and it had the radius' Grease Groove. My MP Mold version has a tapered/square grease groove.

The NOE Boolit shown above at 280 gr has an odd shaped nose section and that is where the extra weight is.

I don't think any of this matters in the slightest. Minor deviations from the original design aren't going to affect the accuracy in any way, and 99.9% of shooters couldn't tell the difference in the first place and the .1% guys would have to explain exactly how they knew the difference and they all would have to agree on exactly what it was. Doubt this will ever happen.

There is too many other variables to define what affected the accuracy on the day you shot it. My biggest variable would be "how I held my mouth when I pulled the trigger."

I think this would be true for just about everyone, except those that don't know how to hold their mouth in the first place.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

The different designs, especially those that throw bullets heavier than 250 gr, do matter if one intends on using the "classic Keith load of 22 gr of 2400 in the 44 Magnum. With 240 - 250 gr bullets that is still an excellent top end load with it under my 429421 (round lube grooves) giving a measured 36,000 psi +/- which is the SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum. Accuracy is excellent out of all my 44 magnums. However, I have received some of the heavier variants of "Keith" bullets weighing as much as 280 gr. With those you'd best drop the charge of 2400 back down to 19.5 - 21 gr depending on the bullet weight. You should also expect less velocity that with the 240 - 255 gr bullets.

As I recall EK used 240 - 250, maybe 255 gr bullets of his design in his 44 Magnum loads with 2400. Both my RCBS 44-250-KT and my Lyman 429421 cast bullets at 250 - 255 gr depending on alloy. Any such bullet weighing more is simple a heavier SWC, to me anyway.

[FISH4BUGS]

H&G #503. End of discussion.

[44MAG#1]

H&G #503. End of discussion.

Which one???

[Mal Paso]

Which one???

The late one with the longer front drive band of course. Best if the front band of the chambered bullet is just inside the throat.

H&G had a pigeon hole box on the wall that held all the sample bullets. The catalogue was hand drawn sketches. No CAD drawings or revision numbers. The BC1103 I have, made much later, has a shorter front drive band, there was a lot of drift.