Making Sparkplugs: My first 100 primers

[Castloader]

So, 100 in 36 minutes? That's a good time! how to you perform the final mix? do you use the mortar & pestle?

I started to use mine to grind and blend the LN last night, and I kept hearing Rice Crispy's in the bowl. I realized that I hadn't cleaned it out ever(stupid, I know), and the last thing I mixed was some EPH25. The humidity must have activated it and I was getting micro pop's with little black spots as the friction kept causing little micro ignitions. I paused everything (except the timer), grabbed my D-lead soap and scrubbed the bowl out with some very hot water. It got nearly back to the pure white porcelain like when I bought it. I've tried doing the final mix several ways: just by shaking in a sealed glass cup (A tiny single-serving honey jar from a fancy restaurant), mixing with a glass stir rod, and blending in the mortar & pestle. I'm interested to know how you do it.

[dverna]

Todays effort include two batches of 50 with a combined time of 36 minutes. One batch took a bit longer due to issues seating RP anvils. These anvils have legs with a "foot" that tends to catch on the edge of the cup.

Again, this is just primer assembly. I have spent a bunch of time removing anvils, pressing out cup indentations, making Lead Hypo, making AL powder, NC powder and glass powder.

To evaluate the 'ROTI', (and that means The Return on Time Invested), the time for prepping and making the compound should be factored in. Even a rough estimate is good enough.

Experimenters do not care much about time or cost
People desperate for primers do not care much about time or cost.
People looking to save money may or may not care about the time needed.
Guys like me will only do it if there is a reasonable ROTI (Return on Time Invested). For example, I stopped casting bullets when I was able to buy 9mm and .38 plinking bullets for $50/k.

[P Flados]

My final mix is just put it in a plastic pill bottle oriented 45° off horizontal, stir with a rod and rotate the bottle until the color is uniform.

I tried a "final grind" in the mortal / pestle early on, and the combination of NC, GG, LH & LN gave me a micro spark to initiate and NC to burn which was not violent, but got my attention and stunk my reloading room up real good.

Don,

Prep time does matter, but is "different" for this retired guy. It can be done well in advance in big batches when I have little else to do (such as it is too nasty to do anything outside).

Part of my time has been sorting stuff. Right now, I worry about anvil brands (CCI & WW seat easy, RP are a PITA to seat) and I do not want rifle cups in my SPP reloads. A smart move is to keep type and brands sorted as you de-cap brass.

Doing a big batch of say CCI prep can be pretty quick if you tumble the up front as a lot of anvils will fall out. The anvil removal from the remaining fraction is quick for me, I have a 1/8" aluminum plate with 20 holes. I drop a primer in each hole, stick a piece of paper clip wire in between two legs and pry the anvil out. About 5% do not roll right out and are tossed. I remove indents on the press and time is similar to single stage de-capping brass.

As an engineer, the time and effort spent making ingredients for EPH 25 is somewhat frustrating. There is an outfit that sells the corrosive primer kits (Prime-All), but no one is making the much more desirable EPH 25 ingredients available from a single source.

• Lead Nitrate is available from Amazon and needs minimal processing.
• Ground Glass and Ground Aluminum can be bought ready to use, but I made mine.
  
  The guys that sell Prime-All (or anyone else wanting to support those that are doing primer reloading) really could help us out by buying the above in bulk (and Sodium Hypo used to make Lead Hypo) and selling EPH 2X ingredients packaged with the right quantities for say 10K SPP.
  
  
• Lead Hypo requires a wet lab and must be done carefully. However, in half a day you can probably make enough for probably 16K SPP once you get the technique down. This would go a little faster with good equipment (spend around $150 instead of my around $60).
• Getting good consistent fine mesh Nitrocellulose powder has been a royal PITA. Castloader's little coffee grinder (blender type machine) is probably the best identified solution where time spent is the primary concern.

[Castloader]

Ditto everything P Flados said. I popped about 2-3k anvils while I was away from home at a school. In the evenings I'd sit in my room (nothing else to do, there was no homework) and pop anvils with a little tackle box. That got me a big box full of cups/anvils to work with. If I run out of Lead Hypophosphite, I'll set up to make a really big batch and spend all day dripping and stirring and try to use up all the Sodium Hypo I have(I have no other use for it besides this). As long as I don't run out of primer cups to work with, I'll be in good shape. Heck, I bought a pack of 1,000 once fired Speer 9mm casings, just so I could pop the primers and have a stash of definite CCI's. I'll use the brass as well along the way and it was cheap.

Just like with reloading generally, there's a big upfront investment of time, resources and learning, but once you get into it, it starts to flow. Now, if we somehow get 2-3 new primer manufacturers opening their doors soon (I hear Sig is starting up a primer factory) and supply/demand drives the price back to where it was, you can bet I'll hang up this little hobby. But it's nice to know that it can be done (here's the real point) easily enough to be making ammo for regular practice. In other words, in volume. I've made 600 SPP primers to date, and I can make a lot more without too much trouble. With all that said, it's obviously not for everyone. It's also been fun to sort of pioneer some of this. Of course we're standing on the shoulders of Mark Wilson and Marshall Thompson, and they in turn are standing on the shoulders of the real pioneers who developed and patented the processes. We are helping to rediscover the process and bring it into the garages, basements and reloading rooms of any who are inclined.

Still, your sentiments about time and cost are real and valid. Everyone's time has a different value. I'm sure for those who have very expensive time, buying ready-made ammo is the only way to go. We all find ourselves at a slightly different place on that continuum.

I somewhat doubt the feasibility of making ready-made primer chem kits though. It's possible, but I get the impression at this point that Sodium hypo is not as regulated as the @TF could make it, simply because it's off their radar. If a bunch of people start popping up doing this kind of thing and a cottage industry springs up to support it, regulation inevitably will follow.

[P Flados]

One thing did occur to me today as I was sizing / decapping a big batch of 9mm.

If you have a big batch of mixed used primers, you may be able to identify some as SPPs or LPP by looking at them. My son's Glock leaves a very telltale rectangular convex impression in addition to the firing pin indent. Other fixed breech autoloading pistols have firing pin drag marks from the barrel dropping down before unlocking.

CCI (good) and RP (not so good) primers also have anvils that are visually unique.

[Castloader]

True, I've gotten pretty good at distinguishing between primer brands just looking at the anvils. I can pick out CCI, Win and Fed at this point.

If I had to start all over, I'd take the time to sort them out. Pain, I know, but I'd just do it. It's a little late now, though the mushrooming indicates rifle primers as well.

[P Flados]

This evening I did some work on technique. I was having problems with CCI anvils popping out after seating and before I could get them in a case. By reducing batch size for the wetting / anvil seating step, I improved the situation some but did not eliminate it.

I went back and played with RP anvils. I found a wetting / tamping / anvil seating sequence that worked. I have never had a RP anvil come out after seating. So this mornings "bad anvils" are now the "good anvils". Even after I wear out my RP cups, I may be recyling the anvils.

As I type this there are 200 reloaded primers in 9mm cases drying in my PID controlled powder coat oven. Boy that thrift store oven my wife found me has been worth every penny of the $5 she spent.

[Castloader]

A good find like that is a beautiful thing. Are you still using paper wads? I found the anvils much easier to install when I eliminated it on this most recent batch. And do you wet, then tamp, or do you tamp first? I tamp the whole batch first, then bang on the plate to help knock any loose powder back into the cups, then wet and place anvil 5-10 at a time.

[P Flados]

I tried a number of sequences today. I am not confident that I will stick with my current sequence but it is as follows:

• Insert cups into plate.
• Place 1/4 tsp EPH 25 on plate.
• Spread EPH 25 powder with a laminated business card.
• Scrape off excess powder with card and return to EPH 25 storage bottle.
• A light one stroke tamp on all 50 primers with a square end bamboo skewer that is just big enough to slip inside the cup. I take my time with this step trying to get a full charge into the cup and not spread powder around the hole as I lift up the skewer.
• A firm tamp with a cone point skewer (same skewer, different end) on 10 primers.
• Wet 10 primers using a pipette with a fine tube (insulation off of 0.031" solid strand wire) inserted in the end. I slowly add liquid from one side watching it first wick across and then add a little more to leave a thin visible layer of liquid on top.
• Place 10 anvils.
• Seat 10 anvils by hand. I am using the flat face of a "mini hammer" on a multi tool at the moment.
• Wipe any residual liquid off of the seated primers with a paper towel.
• Start on the next 10 with a firm cone point tamp as the first step.

[Castloader]

People looking to save money may or may not care about the time needed.
Guys like me will only do it if there is a reasonable ROTI (Return on Time Invested). For example, I stopped casting bullets when I was able to buy 9mm and .38 plinking bullets for $50/k.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ep-prices-high

This was educational and a bit dismaying, but not really surprising. If prices ever got back to where they were, it would be really bad business for Vista and Olin. They have the market control to ensure that never happens. I think these prices are for the most part the new normal.

[Castloader]

In tried a number of sequences today. I am not confident that I will stick with my current sequence but it is as follows:

• Insert cups into plate
• Spread EPH 25 powder with a laminated business card
• Scrape off excess powder with card and return to EPH 25 storage bottle.
• A light one stroke tamp on all 50 primers with a square end bamboo skewer that is just big enough to slip inside the cup. I take my time with this step trying to get a full charge into the cup and not spread powder around the hole as I lift up the skewer.
• A firm tamp with a cone point skewer (same skewer, different end) on 10 primers.
• Wet 10 primers using a pipette with a fine tube (insulation off of 0.031" solid strand wire) inserted in the end. I slowly add liquid from one side watching it first wick across and then add a little more to leave a thin visible layer of liquid on top.
• Place 10 anvils.
• Seat 10 anvils by hand. I am using the flat face of a "mini hammer" on a multi tool at the moment.
• Wipe any residual liquid off of the seated primers with a paper towel.
• Start on the next 10 with a firm cone point tamp as the first step.

-I never return excess powder to storage. I work the whole 33 or 34 grains into the cups come hell or high water. I just keep scraping, tapping and changing the attack angle of the scraper to press the powder in slightly until it all goes. After tamping, I scrape one more time to ensure max powder in the cups. I used to do a second tamp, but that turns out to be a waste of time.

-I have the same problem with picking up the cups when tamping. I keep my razor blade scraper in one hand to hold down the edge of the cup while removing the tamper.

-I'm thinking that second cone point tamp might be skippable. I know you said it makes anvils easier to seat, was that with or without paper wads? You make no mention of them, so I assume you must be skipping them. If you're worried about primer AD's like me, just wet prime your cases and let the primers dry in the cases. You have to prime anyway and the priming tool becomes an anvil setter using the bottom of the primer pocket. The last couple batches, if I had an anvil pop out, I didn't try to fix it, I just set it by hand into the priming tool, added the anvil and seated the primer into a case. Done.

-I have no residual liquid anywhere. Are you referring to spillage on the plate?

[mvintx]

As I type this there are 200 reloaded primers in 9mm cases drying in my PID controlled powder coat oven. Boy that thrift store oven my wife found me has been worth every penny of the $5 she spent.

At what temp and how long are you drying primers in your oven?

[dverna]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ep-prices-high

This was educational and a bit dismaying, but not really surprising. If prices ever got back to where they were, it would be really bad business for Vista and Olin. They have the market control to ensure that never happens. I think these prices are for the most part the new normal.

That is the worst case but short lived IMO. There are competitors who be encouraged to set up a primer line if their is a huge market demand and high profitability.

I am hedging for the worst case. I will be segregating spent primers by make and type. If I have to remanufacture primers, I want to be ready with a consistent material base.

I expect the new normal will be in the $40-45/area within a year. I will then buy 100k and have a lifetime supply (when added to my current stock). I will not spend an hour to save $5....but I will make primers if I have to.

This is a great thread. Every week, you guys are making improvements to the process in terms of reliability and productivity. And with those advancements, we get closer to the tipping point where making beats buying.

[mvintx]

That is the worst case but short lived IMO. There are competitors who be encouraged to set up a primer line if their is a huge market demand and high profitability.

I am hedging for the worst case. I will be segregating spent primers by make and type. If I have to remanufacture primers, I want to be ready with a consistent material base.

I expect the new normal will be in the $40-45/area within a year. I will then buy 100k and have a lifetime supply (when added to my current stock). I will not spend an hour to save $5....but I will make primers if I have to.

This is a great thread. Every week, you guys are making improvements to the process in terms of reliability and productivity. And with those advancements, we get closer to the tipping point where making beats buying.

I think you're being optimistic about primers in the $40-50 range but I also hope you are correct in your optimism. I've been watching the primer-making topic with interest for a couple of years now and it was only since reading this thread that my interest has been renewed. For most of us, we like to reload not only because we like to shoot but we are also insulated somewhat from panic-driven shortages. I'm sure many of us also enjoy the process of reloading. When I started casting boolits, again I enjoyed the process. Powder-coating came along and yep, I enjoy that too. Reloading primers is another process that will insulate us from the greed of the marketplace. The process of reloading primers will only grow from what it is today. If we can synthesize one of the ingredients for priming compound, it should be possible to make smokeless powder.

There is a component of the value of time. It all depends on how badly you want or need the result of a given process. Personally, I'd rather spend the time adding a new hobby that preserves my current supply of primers. I may have to never buy another primer again.

Hats off to Castloader and Pflados for their instructive posts.

[Castloader]

I think you're being optimistic about primers in the $40-50 range but I also hope you are correct in your optimism. I've been watching the primer-making topic with interest for a couple of years now and it was only since reading this thread that my interest has been renewed. For most of us, we like to reload not only because we like to shoot but we are also insulated somewhat from panic-driven shortages. I'm sure many of us also enjoy the process of reloading. When I started casting boolits, again I enjoyed the process. Powder-coating came along and yep, I enjoy that too. Reloading primers is another process that will insulate us from the greed of the marketplace. The process of reloading primers will only grow from what it is today. If we can synthesize one of the ingredients for priming compound, it should be possible to make smokeless powder.

There is a component of the value of time. It all depends on how badly you want or need the result of a given process. Personally, I'd rather spend the time adding a new hobby that preserves my current supply of primers. I may have to never buy another primer again.

Well said. I've been wondering about smokeless powder. Unique is over 100 years old, the formula can't be too hard. It's still cheapish to buy whenever you can find it, but I'm curious to know the process. I really do wonder about the possibility of a small time manufacturer producing primers locally and selling to LGS in their area. I can hardly imagine an area in the US right now that would not benefit from this. I imagine with some modern CNC equipment configured specifically for primer manufacture, a single person could be cranking out 10K or more primers per day. If I were an entrepreneur, I might have a go, but I already have a full time job. CNC equipment is getting cheaper by the day, and if you think about it, nothing we are doing is really that complex for machines. For a big company making hundreds of millions of primers a year, very expensive equipment is required. I would think that a primer micro-brewery could do quite well in small batches. Hell, if I were the owner of a LGS, I might take something like this up on the side. Imagine a Mark VII or Ammoload type machine reconfigured to produce primers instead of cartridges. It's not really far fetched.

[Castloader]

I tried a number of sequences today. I am not confident that I will stick with my current sequence but it is as follows:

• Place 1/4 tsp EPH 25 on plate.
  

I just noticed this. Do you make a big batch of EPH25 and just scoop some out?

[blackthorn]

A couple of questions: Are cups and anvils interchangeable within manufacturers? I have several containers full. I take it that the acronym NC, used in this thread, refers to Nitro Cellulous. I also take it that you are grinding NC powder in a coffee grinder. If I'm right, can we use powder(s) collected from when we pull-down ammunition form unknown sources? This last question because I have a good sized bottle of mixed powders accumulated over time from this source. I had planned to use it for fire-forming, starting at three grains and carefully working up but if it can be used for emergency primer making that would be one more reason to continue saving it.

[Castloader]

Yes, Nitrocellulose is what all modern smokeless powder is made of. There are single and double based, but anything works here. Your unknown pull down powder would be ideal here. We aren’t using much, 5 grains of NC per 100 primers.

Regarding cup and anvil interchangeability…yes for the most part. I would recommend keeping rifle and pistol primers separate. Mine were all in a jumble, so I’ve got everything mixed together. We get occasional issues with primers needing more than one strike to ignite, and a few that didn’t give reliable ignition, but most of those problems have been solved.

[dverna]

Well said. I've been wondering about smokeless powder. Unique is over 100 years old, the formula can't be too hard. It's still cheapish to buy whenever you can find it, but I'm curious to know the process. I really do wonder about the possibility of a small time manufacturer producing primers locally and selling to LGS in their area. I can hardly imagine an area in the US right now that would not benefit from this. I imagine with some modern CNC equipment configured specifically for primer manufacture, a single person could be cranking out 10K or more primers per day. If I were an entrepreneur, I might have a go, but I already have a full time job. CNC equipment is getting cheaper by the day, and if you think about it, nothing we are doing is really that complex for machines. For a big company making hundreds of millions of primers a year, very expensive equipment is required. I would think that a primer micro-brewery could do quite well in small batches. Hell, if I were the owner of a LGS, I might take something like this up on the side. Imagine a Mark VII or Ammoload type machine reconfigured to produce primers instead of cartridges. It's not really far fetched.

On another thread I proposed that one of the larger distributors approach Fiocchi to make primers. They already have ammunition manufacturing in the US and they have the expertise from their Italian operations. Not too difficult for them to gear up to make primers. A large distributor provides an instant outlet for product. They would be sold out at a cost of $50 to consumers as things are now...and that is a very profitable business.

I say that because the "gorillas" were making money at consumer pricing o $35/k and costs have not increased more than 30%. $35 shelf price means a place like Powder Valley was paying $25/k and the manufacturer had about $12.50 in material and costs (12.50 margin/k). With a 30% cost increase, new manufacturing cost is going to be about $16.50/k. They can sell to PV for $35/k (netting a margin of $18.50...about a 50% increase in margin. Powder Valley sells for $50/k. PV goes from a profit of $10/k to $15/k....50% increase. We the consumers will be paying 43% more...and be happy about it...LOL.

The problem with a small shop making primers is the labor cost. One person costs $150/day. That is $15/k. Not many folks are currently willing to spend $75/k for factory primers so a small shop might get $50/k...and they better work 99.5% of the time and not "go off" when using a progressive press. If/when factory primers drop to $50/k they cannot compete. I suspect most shops would be unwilling to take on the liability of manufacturing. And at $50/k both the manufacturers and distributors are making more money than they ever have.

Unless there is runaway inflation, price fixing and/or collusion, primers should not stay over $50/k. Raw material and labor cost increases do not support it.

But I am still going to save my spent primers...LOL. I do not trust the ********.

[mvintx]

A couple of questions: Are cups and anvils interchangeable within manufacturers? I have several containers full. I take it that the acronym NC, used in this thread, refers to Nitro Cellulous. I also take it that you are grinding NC powder in a coffee grinder. If I'm right, can we use powder(s) collected from when we pull-down ammunition form unknown sources? This last question because I have a good sized bottle of mixed powders accumulated over time from this source. I had planned to use it for fire-forming, starting at three grains and carefully working up but if it can be used for emergency primer making that would be one more reason to continue saving it.

...about using pull-down powders. The general consensus over on the primer reloading forum at MeWe was to use the fastest pistol powder you have. . . Bullseye, Red Dot, Promo and other 'fast-burning' powders. Castloader is using and getting great results with Power Pistol, which on my burn rate chart is 27 powders slower than Red Dot. If you start making EPH20 or 25, I'd certainly try with the powder you have on hand. It's not like you can run to the LGS and grab a pound of Bullseye anymore. In my opinion, this whole component and ammunition shortage is being manipulated.