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Thread: Making Sparkplugs: My first 100 primers

  1. #81
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    For assembly, I am using the 1/8" bamboo skewer method.

    I am also using regular medicine cabinet 70% alcohol mixed 50/50 with water. The water is what we want, the alcohol is just there as a wetting agent.

    With the blunt end of the skewer just moist, you push down on a paper disc to pick it up.

    Then you push the paper disc into the primer full of EPH 2x.

    I then dip the blunt end of the skewer about 1/2" deep into my alcohol / water and then lift. A small drop forms on the end. This drop is then applied to the primer. I make sure there is visible water above the paper for at least 10 seconds. I wait at least another 10 seconds and then use the corner of a paper towel to wick off any excess water at this point.

    I let it stand for another little while (ideally 10 - 20 seconds).

    I place an anvil on top, move the primer over to the ram on my anvil seating tool in my reloading press and seat the anvil. I can adjust my anvil seating tool for a precise height, currently set for 0.125".

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    For assembly, I am using the 1/8" bamboo skewer method.

    I am also using regular medicine cabinet 70% alcohol mixed 50/50 with water. The water is what we want, the alcohol is just there as a wetting agent.

    With the blunt end of the skewer just moist, you push down on a paper disc to pick it up.

    Then you push the paper disc into the primer full of EPH 2x.

    I then dip the blunt end of the skewer about 1/2" deep into my alcohol / water and then lift. A small drop forms on the end. This drop is then applied to the primer. I make sure there is visible water above the paper for at least 10 seconds. I wait at least another 10 seconds and then use the corner of a paper towel to wick off any excess water at this point.

    I let it stand for another little while (ideally 10 - 20 seconds).

    I place an anvil on top, move the primer over to the ram on my anvil seating tool in my reloading press and seat the anvil. I can adjust my anvil seating tool for a precise height, currently set for 0.125".
    Thanks for your techniques. I might omit the paper disk and see how that goes. Seems like a lot of guys don't use them and it would be one less thing to do.

  3. #83
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    I have recently made some changes including discontinuing use of the paper disc.

    I am doing the wetting before doing the packing. I want to make sure I get all of the powder wet.

    I also sanded the tip of my bamboo skewer to be a cone point such that after I pack the powder, the anvil drops into place much more centered.

    After I have about 10 primers assembled, I am loading them into a Lee hand priming tool and installing them into my brass. If I let the primers dry before putting them in cases, I am getting too many going off as the primer is being seated.

    I am not real happy with results on SPPs right now. Too much variation in power level with a lot of weak ones.

    I also set up for LPP. Before starting on primer reloading, I had converted a batch of 38 Sp cases to LPP given I have a 5K stash of LPP and was not using them for any load I shoot on a regular basis. I think I may be getting closer to a good product for reloading the larger size primer. For this effort I am skipping the AL (i.e. using EPH 20) and for NC in my most recent batch I just used a very fine grain ball powder (H110) straight out of the jug. The bang from a primed case in a 3" LCRx 38 Sp is impressive with my LPPs.
    Last edited by P Flados; 12-26-2021 at 07:38 PM.

  4. #84
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    There's a fellow over on the MeWe forum who is priming his cases right after seating the anvils - the EPH20 is still moist. He said it takes a couple of days before the priming compound dries.

  5. #85
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    Not getting the mix totally dry may be part of my consistency problem. I am playing around with different drying routines (time and/or baking).

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    I took my 30 primers and went to seat them by placing them one at a time in my old round Lee hand priming tool with no cover installed.

    Three (10%) went off while seating the primer. I was not terribly surprised as I had more than few accidental squirts when I was supposed to be dripping solution from the small beaker to the big beaker. Here is the warning from the instructions available at MeWe:

    If you add two or more drops in the same place at once, this may constitute a concentration which can result in the formation of “lead nitratohypophosphite”, and may result in a premature, “impact sensitive” product, reducing the safety factor of EPH20.

    I initially checked my Lead Hypophosphite (a.k.a Lead Hipo) and it did not go bang, but I saw a warning somewhere that it might not go bang yet you may still have a little lead nitratohypophosphite mixed in.

    I fired some primed empties and the power level seemed consistent and as expected. All went off first try.

    I then assembled more than 100 more, but this time I seated the primers in a case before letting the primers dry. None went off with this process. I dried some primed cases in my PC oven at 120 degf for a couple of hours and test fired a few primed empties. They all went off fine.

    I loaded a little over 100 rounds. Mostly 38 Sp, a few 32s.

    I will keep playing with my current batch of Lead Hipo (very carefully) until I get more equipment delivered so that I can can make up a better batch.
    I haven't had any go off while seating, even if I try to be a little rough. I dry the primers before seating, so they should be fully sensitive. Not sure why yours are doing that. I've successfully fired 300 9mm or .38SPL rounds so far with these primers.

    What kind of grit are you using? I accidentally broke one of my pyrex beakers, so I took the opportunity to grind it up into powder and sifted through a 100 mesh screen. If your grit is more course, that could be a factor.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    I have recently made some changes including discontinuing use of the paper disc.

    I am doing the wetting before doing the packing. I want to make sure I get all of the powder wet.

    I also sanded the tip of my bamboo skewer to be a cone point such that after I pack the powder, the anvil drops into place much more centered.

    After I have about 10 primers assembled, I am loading them into a Lee hand priming tool and installing them into my brass. If I let the primers dry before putting them in cases, I am getting too many going off as the primer is being seated.

    I am not real happy with results on SPPs right now. Too much variation in power level with a lot of weak ones.

    I also set up for LPP. Before starting on primer reloading, I had converted a batch of 38 Sp cases to LPP given I have a 5K stash of LPP and was not using them for any load I shoot on a regular basis. I think I may be getting closer to a good product for reloading the larger size primer. For this effort I am skipping the AL (i.e. using EPH 20) and for NC in my most recent batch I just used a very fine grain ball powder (H110) straight out of the jug. The bang from a primed case in a 3" LCRx 38 Sp is impressive with my LPPs.
    I think the paper disk has a purpose. for one thing, it probably helps the mixture crush better acting as a backing against which the mixture presses. For another thing, it takes up a little volume, so you'd have to add some more mixture if it wasn't there. Anyway, the big manufacturers use it, so it must be important.

    Regarding wetting, I use one single drop of the 50/50 alcohol/water mix applied near the edge of the primer cup and watch the wetness flow across the pellet. It's very consistent. I use 91% isopropyl alcohol. If you're using 70% alcohol, I would add less water to get the ratio to 50%. You could make up a slurry with 3 grams of 70% isopropyl with 1.2 grams of distilled water and that would give you a 50/50 mix. Your reloading scale would be ideal for this.

  8. #88
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    Castloader,

    My last couple of primer only test runs did much better with good performance from both SPP and LPP.

    This time around, I was more aggressive and more patient with drying. A couple of hours at 120 degf right after loading, overnight at ambient, another trip to the 120 degf oven for a little while prior to loading.

    My issue with going off while installing primers may be related to how I seat the anvil. The standard primer reload guidance seems to have you seat the anvil flush with the top of the cup. I seat the anvil for an overall primer height of to 0.125" which leaves it sticking out of the cup a little bit. I noted that this is how new primers are. My method puts a little crush on the pellet when the primer is seated in the brass. It is at this point where I had my undesired ignition problems.

    When I was using the paper disc I was using the blunt end of a bamboo skewer for packing the mixture. This was making it hard to get the anvil to seat properly every time.

    I went to packing the mixture with a cone point on the skewer to help with anvil seating. The cone angle is about 45 ° off of centerline. The paper disc was not working out well with the cone point packing. I had noted that some the guys at MeWe were skipping the paper disc and decided to give it a try.

    Other than making it harder to get the pellet good and dry, at the moment I am liking my assembly sequence. The loose powder wetting followed by cone point packing does a good job of wetting the mixture (yes, I try to put a perfect size drop off to the side and watch the wetness flow across), it is easy, and it compresses the pellet close to final shape. This pre-shaping simplifies anvil placement and seating. I also like the idea of getting a little crush on the pellet during primer installation in the brass within a couple of minutes of wetting. At this point the pellet seems pretty firm, but still gives a little bit. For EPH 2x the mixture turns into a firm solid after wetting, packing and then drying.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanzy4200 View Post
    The determination and ingenuity of us gun guys is epic. Now, what bothers me. If a guy in his basement can manage this, why in the name of Zeus's butthole can't a small/medium company figure this out on a larger scale!
    I’ve been wondering this too. I expect people are paying attention to the drought(or opportunity if you will) and making plans to expand manufacturing. It’s probably not a way to get rich off selling primers necessarily, but it is a way to be able to keep selling ammo when others can’t!

  10. #90
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    @P Flados, I have a mini lathe, so I’ve turned a few punches to my needed specifications. I have one for removing the dimple(which has a very slight conical shape), one for packing the powder, and one for setting the anvils. I measured a bunch of factory SPP’s back when I was setting up for this process, and I noticed the anvils sticking out. The thickness I measured is exactly 3mm which is slightly less than .125, it’s .118. I bought a 3mm plate on fleabay for this purpose.

    I’m sure that if you stick a small dowel in a drill and polish with sandpaper, you could make some very effective packing punches. Just a thought.

    I’m sure there are a variety of ways to do this. It’s been great to have someone else working on it as well! Cheers!

  11. #91
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    I also have a mini lathe. I looked up the spec for primers and the height range is 0.1150" to 0.1260" for everything except large rifle. I might "adjust" my anvil seating punch/die to get my primers close to the low end of the spec, but I kind of want to give my current materials, methods and settings a fair test before I make too many more changes.

    One thing I did was buy a full set of sifting screens (https://www.riogrande.com/product/st...pan-set/350070) and my most recent batches of NC, AL, and Glass have been sifted to get consistent particle size.

    The above reminds me that I wanted to share more on processing glass. Just after I got started down this path, my wife dropped and broke a pyrex mixing cup. How convenient. The downside was that the chunks were mostly quite thick and very very mortar / pestle unfriendly. I pondered it for a while and then decided to try pulverizing as a first step. I used a brass 3/4” NPT pipe cap, a 6” nipple and a 2' long 5/8” metal rod to pulverize chunks. The pulverized mix is dumped, run through the sifting screen set and the bigger stuff goes back in the “to be pulverized” pile. The finer stuff that is one or two screens bigger than desired gets final processing in a mortar and pestle. The process is much easier and cleaner than my initial attempt using mortar and pestle only to process glass.

    As far as business opportunities, making primers sounds full of liability issues and then you have to deal with the Hazmat mess. To avoid those issues, a small outfit could probably do well supplying stuff that is less convenient to obtain right now. I would not buy cups and anvils, but some would. What I would buy are Lead Hypo, ground glass and aluminum powder all from one place in packages with quantities suitable for 5K LPP.

    The other "not easy" item is NC powder. I do not think it could be shipped as powder without hazmat. Round rods 1/2" x 6" should be shippable and would save the effort of making pucks for those currently using the puck method. I think I saw somewhere that someone had found he could run flake smokeless through a hand coffee grinder in several passes to get a fine powder. This might be the best / easiest path to good NC powder.
    Last edited by P Flados; 01-01-2022 at 11:33 AM.

  12. #92
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    Good stuff here. Yes, the sifting screens really help with consistency. I wish I had thought to make a “mortar&pestle” out of pipe fittings, it would have saved me a lot of mess and given me a much better yield. I did the ziploc bag/hammer method, but I like yours way better.

    My CCI SPP’s consistently measured .118”, so thats what I’ve been aiming for. I saw somewhere on Rumble a guy who had made a strip of aluminum plate with a line of holes in it that he would run through his single stage press to seat anvils consistently. I’ll probably try that pretty soon. I have very low anvil seating consistency.

    I imagine that a business wanting to start up making primers would probably have more success just making primers rather than selling components. The AL powder is generally frowned upon for mass distribution, see skylighter.com for more detail there. Heavily regulated. I’m still not sure about the Lead hypo. Did you look carefully at the shipping label when it arrived? Lets just say I’m glad it showed up and I’m not interested in asking too many questions about how it got here.

    I have seriously considered getting a cheap coffee grinder exclusively for chems like this, possibly NC, maybe some AL powder. I did a bunch of research years ago about making AL powder. Apparently, keeping a small particle size without letting it oxidize is the challenge. Mixing with charcoal seems to be the preferred way.

    Regarding grinding NC, my top concern is how sticky and plasticky it is. It could just gum the whole thing up.

    Happy New Year!

  13. #93
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    New hangfire video

    New better video of the hangfires using HS-6 powder with my 9mm CZ TSO. You can see the hammer drop unlike with the Glock, and I got some slow motion.

    https://youtu.be/xd3Qmym2hwU

    I’ll be returning to this powder as I tweak the primer recipe until I can get the delay to go away. It’s a really weird feeling experiencing the short delay.

  14. #94
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    For both Pflados and Castloader, are you resizing your primer cups or just hammering out the dents? As far as grinding NC, I'm trying to decide between the puck/acetone or coffee grinder method.

    And Happy New Year to all. May 2022 be better.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castloader View Post
    I have very low anvil seating consistency.
    The improvement I got for anvil seating with wetting the loose powder and then cone point powder packing was significant. It is much faster and easier and I have only messed up one primer (anvil turned sideways) since I started doing it this way. You should give it a try.

    Thanks on the good pointers in regard to AL powder. I have mine stored in a couple of small ziplock bags, but I may want to upgrade my storage using a bigger ziplock to hold the smaller ziplocks and throw a desiccant in the big ziplock. I am not so sure about mixing in charcoal. I worry about affecting performance. Other than keeping as dry as possible, I am not sure there is much else I would want to try. Also, for the AL powder I think the desired size is big enough (80-100 I think) to be less of a problem than for a really fine powder.

    Yesterday, I used a belt sander (with 80 grit abrasive) to generate some more powder from scrap AL. It took more work and generated less powder than I hoped for. I have made and discarded lots of AL powder in the past during metal working activities. I am considering trying a very fine blade on my small bench top band saw with very slow advance speeds.

  16. #96
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    I've dabbled in primer remaking with "Prime-All". That's the old military H48 corrosive stuff (but they won't tell you that). First thing I learned was their method of "a scoop of this and 2 scoops of that" just doesn't work. You need to weigh out the components per Aardvark Reloading. I got much better results that way, but still not 100% "bang". So I put in a punch cut roll cap (for toy guns) in the bottom of each cup, added the compound, packed it down with a bamboo skewer, a drop of denatured alcohol with shellac added, a punch cut paper cover on top and seated the anvil. I also added a touch of aluminum powder and baking soda to the compound. The baking soda is a preservative and the aluminum gives a hotter spark. Results were almost 100% ignition. The few that didn't were due to deformation of the cup being so flattened that the firing pin couldn't make a deep enough strike. That tiny piece of brass takes a lot of punishment and changes shape enough that it can be difficult to seat it back into the case. So you end up pressing it in there harder and the cup flattens out more.

    So I'm thinking that it would be good to make some kind of die to "resize" the cups. But that is beyond my abilities. I have now started to anneal the cups after pounding out the dent to keep the brass soft. Working the brass makes it hard and brittle which also makes it tougher for the firing pin to make a good dent. All you need is a propane torch.

    Castloader, I really like your idea of the 3mm plate. It seems to make the process much quicker, neater and easier. I'm curious; what does the ground glass do, anyway?
    Last edited by oldsalt444; 12-31-2021 at 03:36 PM.

  17. #97
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    I just got back from the range. I shot more than 100 and no real problems. Some may have been slightly less powerful than standard, but about half of what I shot were from "older method" batches. Everything was "good enough" for typical practice shooting at the range.

    One primer in a 38 was noted to have black residue in the firing pin indent. It looked like a tiny crack went through the cup material. I am guessing that this is to be expected. In my opinion, an occasional pierced primer with a low pressure rounds is pretty low risk for firing pin damage. The cup was from a small batch of S&B SPP I harvested from some fired 38s I had stashed. I will probably toss the rest of that batch after the second firing.

    Late update: Going through my brass back at the house, I found one "light strike" unfired 38 Sp round. I think I missed noting it at the range because it was probably the last round in a cylinder where I lost track of rounds fired.
    Last edited by P Flados; 01-01-2022 at 11:29 AM.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldsalt444 View Post
    So I'm thinking that it would be good to make some kind of die to "resize" the cups. But that is beyond my abilities. I have now started to anneal the cups after pounding out the dent to keep the brass soft. Working the brass makes it hard and brittle which also makes it tougher for the firing pin to make a good dent. All you need is a propane torch.
    I am "pressing" out the indentation in my reloading press using a small flat nose ram and a die with a recessed flat surface so that I can go full travel on the handle. This is probably more consistent and easier on the brass than methods involving a hammer.

    The general consensus for most primer reloaders seems to be to not anneal the cup. However, being an engineer that understands things like cold working brass, I do not always agree with "popular wisdom" type guidance. I would say that annealed cups should not be used on higher pressure applications. Annealing may even reduce life as the material at the indentation may get thinner more quickly. I can see annealing working if you are only using them in low pressure rounds and you are using them in a gun with a lighter strike. If someone is just trying to maximize number of reloads per cup, some careful testing with a "partial anneal" (in a temperature controlled oven for just long enough to remove say 75% of the cold work) about 2 uses prior normal end of life would be a good start. On the other hand, a full anneal of a thick cup (CCI 41, CCI 450 for example) for use in a low pressure pistol application might work well. If you were using mixed cups and had light strike issues, could you have been getting some of these "less sensitive" rifle primer cups mixed in.

    Making EPH 20 for use with fast burning powders in handgun ammo is not that bad and can provide for a lot of low cost per round shooting.

    For those wanting to try non-corrosive without buying the full lab equipment for making Lead Hypophosphite, the guys at the MeWe forum have one or more loaner sets. I would say that for most shooters, you can use the loner set and make enough Lead Hypophosphite to last until either factory primer availability and cost get more reasonable or until you know enough to better decide on how deep you want to get into primer reloading. If you use the loner set, I would say one 200 gram bag of Sodium Hypophosphite should be enough. Even for more active shooters, starting with this quantity might be wise just to make sure you are happy with primer reloading before putting out a big effort in making a lot of Lead Hypophosphite.
    Last edited by P Flados; 12-31-2021 at 05:11 PM.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvintx View Post
    For both Pflados and Castloader, are you resizing your primer cups or just hammering out the dents? As far as grinding NC, I'm trying to decide between the puck/acetone or coffee grinder method.

    And Happy New Year to all. May 2022 be better.
    I’m just smacking out the dent, but the punch is made to just barely fit inside the cup. I skip any primers that have gotten flattened. I know some people push them through a sizer, but I don’t have one thats exactly the right size. I made one with a drill bit, but it sizes the cup a hair too small.

  20. #100
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    The spec for SPP and SRP pockets is 0.1730" to 0.1745" and for primers it is 0.1745" to 0.1765".

    I made a reamer and made a sizing die for SPP / SRP. I resized several hundred cups and found them to be just under the low end of the spec for primer diameters and found they were too loose for comfort in some of my older brass. I opened up the die to get my sized primers to mic out somewhere between 0.1745" and 0.1747". There is some spring back and it is not entirely consistent from one primer to the next.

    About half of the SPP primers I have assembled were sized. None of the LPP were sized. All of my cup sizing was done after I ordered stuff, but before I made my first batch of Lead Hypo. At this point I am not convinced one way or the other if cup sizing is worth the effort. For one thing, the factory installation of the primer into a case did an initial "sizing" that should minimize the number of removed cups close to the high end of the primer spec.

    Collecting batches of similar (good) or "same brand and type" (better) primers probably does more for consistency than sizing. If you do not have a lot of fired primers that can be sorted, look at your stash of fired cases and/or start gathering once fired brass just for primer harvesting. I have done some gathering recently. I am passing on 9s as too many have "glock damaged" primers where the firing pin plows a groove as the barrel moves downward to unlock the slide. I like the look of most 380s, 38 Sp and 45 acp (small and large) a lot better. My indoor range sells their brass to a scrapper, so I have started bringing a bag of my trash brass to "trade in" when I pick up stuff at this location. The outdoor range I occasionally go to has an official brass pick up policy that Oks picking up anything that is still on the ground.
    Last edited by P Flados; 01-01-2022 at 11:32 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check