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Thread: Making Sparkplugs: My first 100 primers

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Castloader,

    Of the supplies you purchased, did any of them require "hazmat" shipping.

    If not a "group buy" of some of the chemicals with them divided up and re-shipped to other purchasers would make it possible for a group of people to each get just enough for say 200 non-corrosive primers at a discount price.

    However, I looked at the Aardvark video for EPH 20, and I am not sure I want to jump into making lead hypophosphite.

  2. #62
    Boolit Buddy Castloader's Avatar
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    I did not pay any Hazmat shipping. The Sodium Hypophosphite came from Eastern Europe somewhere. Ukraine or Bulgaria or something. I’m working on the numbers for my next update to provide more info for those who are interested in laying aside the resources for a rainy day. My math was off by quite a bit in my estimation of how many primers can be made with a given amount of chemicals. I can make about 15,000 SPP with the chems I have, not 200K. I’ll update with more detail soon.

  3. #63
    Boolit Buddy Castloader's Avatar
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    No EBAY links allowed

    This is what I ordered. 200g will give you about 30K SPP or somewhere around 20K LRP
    Last edited by MrWolf; 12-05-2021 at 09:38 AM. Reason: No EBAY links allowed

  4. #64
    Boolit Buddy Castloader's Avatar
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    Slow powder test

    On the road today, so I don’t have access to my shop.

    Yesterday I did a test with 90 9mm rounds using 5.4gr HS-6 powder, and five .357mag with 15gr IMR 4227 powder under a 158gr SWC. These are the slowest (pistol) powders I have. The purpose was to see if these primers can ignite the more stubborn powder.

    Probably 60-75% of the 9mm were hangfires. There is an approximately 0.15 second delay where the primer pop is audible and I could hear the firing pin hit, and even a small pop, then the powder ignited and the round was fired. I’ve made a short video.

    https://youtu.be/wAK_JRNUhz8

    The IMR 4227 had mixed results. One hangfire like the 9mm, one complete misfire and the other 3 felt normal. The .357 misfire is the first and only complete failure to fire so far. I suspect the primer initiated, but simply failed to ignite the powder at all. Until I pull the boolit and check, I won’t know for sure.

    It seems this mixture prefers fast powder. In the future, I’ll try some aluminum powder additive to see if that helps. There are some related recipes such as EPH25 and 26 that are designed to correct this problem.

    On the good side, there was only one cartridge that required a second trigger pull (not including the complete failure to fire).

  5. #65
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    Yesterday I went through my big stash of mixed old primers & confirmed that I could do pretty good at visually sorting to extract some that all look like the RP SPPM that I have used several thousand of already (I have more of these not yet used). I really want to start out with as much consistency for this item as possible.

    I popped out some anvils and tapped the dimples out of the cups. The primer brand makes a big difference, I have a bunch of easy to identify Fiocche SPP in the mix but removing anvils from them is way too much of a pain. Most of the other primers are a mix of SPP and SRP that I can not visually tell apart.

    This morning I took a hammer to a glass beverage bottle then went at some chips with a mortar and pestle. I got the glass down to a powder just a little courser than needed for the final product.

    I then mixed glass powder 50/50 by weight with a very fine ball powder (from a batch of "bad" milsurp version of H110 - it had been contaminated with some grit). I took this mix and went at it with the mortar and pestle. I think this might work.

    As noted by Castloader, the processing in of the NC (Nitro Cellulose - a.k.a smokeless powder) is a PITA. It is also one of those items where I was unsure of how much mortal and pestle action would be "good enough". What kind of NC and how much processing is needed (or alternately - how little can we get away with) seems to be an area worth the effort to explore.

    With all of the above zero cost "homework" done, my desire has increased to move forward with EPH20.

    During a recent conversation with my wife, she seemed frustrated at my "nothing much" reply as to what I wanted from Santa. So today I notified her that Santa was going to get me something along the lines of a "home chemistry set". I had to explain the primer shortage situation and the application before she was satisfied (No sweetheart, I will not be making anything real dangerous, etc. etc.)

    Items ordered:

    400 grams Sodium Hypophosphite off Ebay for $26.49 with free shipping
    500 grams Lead Nitrate off Amazon for $20.95 with free shipping (prime)
    Hot plate / magnetic mixer off Amazon for $39.58 with free shipping (prime)
    12 glass stirring rods off Amazon for $4.84 with free shipping (prime)

    I plan to make a few batches with no further purchases. I would like some AL powder, but the currently identified source comes in a larger quantity than I need and the cost is higher than I want to pay. This combined with the fact that 90% of our shooting is fast burning powder in handguns makes me want to hold off on this ingredient.

  6. #66
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    Castloader,

    Thinking more about the AL powder. The recipe calls for a very small amount of this ingredient. I am betting that I make make very fine filings with a metal file and some scrap AL. I will try this before ordering any powder.

  7. #67
    Boolit Buddy Castloader's Avatar
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    My initial plan was to scrounge some from a tannerite powder pack. I have nowhere to use the tannerite, and the packet will probably go a pretty long way. Otherwise, a coffee grinder and some aluminum foil, or perhaps ball milling with some ceramic media. I read somewhere that ball milling aluminum with lead causes contamination issues that could affect viability.

  8. #68
    Boolit Buddy Castloader's Avatar
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    P Flados, for every 200g of sodium hypophosphite, you’ll need about 500g of Lead Nitrate. This is because you use the LN twice and the SH only once. If you’re trying to have a balanced supply, you should grab another 500g of LN

  9. #69
    Boolit Buddy Castloader's Avatar
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    Chemical math

    All, I crunched some numbers and played with a little weights and measures.

    My initial estimate that I had the necessary chems for 200,000 SPP primers was off by an order of magnitude, because the Home Made Primer Course just gives recipes, it doesn't tell you anything about yield. I have edited my original post to reflect. Having made some primers, I have determined the following:

    1) The recipes in the Homemade Primer Course seem to be calibrated to make enough composition for 100 Small Pistol Primers per batch. This is based on my actual experience with EPH20.
    2) The recipe given in the HPC pdf(33.1g of Lead Nitrate and 21.5g of Sodium Hypophosphite) yields approximately 30 grams of Lead Hypophosphite. This weight is based upon my experience with my first batch, and could perhaps be improved upon with better technique. I lost a little when filtering and drying, and perhaps I might not have gotten a maximum reaction during synthesis. I do not know what the theoretical upper limit might be, but I suspect I did reasonably well, and you might get a few more grams, but that's it. (FYI, you later need to add more Lead Nitro to this Lead Hypo to make the actual priming compound)
    3) This batch of 30 grams of Lead Hypo, according to my math, should yield 3,991 primers not accounting for waste. Theoretically, the 100 gram bag of Sodium Hypophosphite I initially purchased should be enough to make 18,563 primers.
    4) I estimate Large Rifle primers to be about 50% more volume than SPP based on the dimensions.

    A reasonable approach would look something like this:

    Buy 200 grams of Sodium Hypo
    Buy 500 grams of Lead Nitrate
    Cost: around $50 at todays prices. Shop around, volume discounts on chems are a real thing.

    You now have enough LN to make 31,624 SPP and enough Sodium Hypo to make 37,125 SPP. Since you'd run out of LN first, that is the limiting factor. If you factor 5% loss due to waste, you arrive at a fairly neat 30K SPP. With my volume estimation, this would also potentially make around 20K LRP. Keep these chems for a rainy day, they don't seem to be considered hazmat, at least in the size batches indicated, or play around with making your own primers.

    I must say, shooting rounds with homemade primers gave me the same thrill that I had nearly forgotten, the first time I shot my own handloaded cartridge. The sense of, Holy Cow, that actually worked!!! It was fun in a way to be on the range with brass all around sadly by myself, but happily able to keep shooting during the drought.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    I did take a file to some scrap AL. I was able to come up with around 10 gr of fine AL powder without too much effort.

    The recipe actually calls for 80 mesh AL. I believe that the AL in commercial primers is the little streaks of burning particles that you see in photos of them going off.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castloader View Post
    P Flados, for every 200g of sodium hypophosphite, you’ll need about 500g of Lead Nitrate. This is because you use the LN twice and the SH only once. If you’re trying to have a balanced supply, you should grab another 500g of LN
    I knew I was not balanced. I really do not get any discount for ordering extra lead nitrate from the Amazon Source. I ordered extra sodium hypophosphite to get a little lower cost per gram. Also, the source for sodium hypophosphite looked to be more risky of going away, getting more costly or getting harder to buy from.

  12. #72
    Boolit Buddy Castloader's Avatar
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    That makes good sense.

  13. #73
    Boolit Master
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    Kudos to Castloader for staying on this topic for other members benefit!

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

  14. #74
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    Does anyone know anything about shelf life of EPH20. I thought I read something over on the MeWe forum that alluded to a short lifespan but I can't find it now.

  15. #75
    Boolit Master
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    I find a lot of stuff hard to follow over at MeWe.

    There was some discussion about a primer compound going bad due to picking up water. Not sure if it was one of the EPH2x compounds or not.

    Since you add water to the EPH2x powder and then let air dry, going bad due to picking up water would seem strange.

  16. #76
    Boolit Buddy
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    I'll agree the mewe forum is a bit hard to find things without having to scroll up and down. I'm still trying to figure out why I can't access any of the Rumble videos. Might have something to do with me having a Mac and running the Brave browser.

  17. #77
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    Well, I got a surprise today. My Sodium Hipo showed up. Lots of reports of 40 or so days for delivery, so getting it in 16 days was great.

    Bad news is that my lab glass, glass stirring rods, second thermometer and pipettes are all still on their way.

    I cobbled together a makeshift lab, and tried to make a batch anyway. I had a glass jar full of solution break on the hot plate, made a bunch of silly mistakes, and recovered as required to get a some nice looking Lead Hipo.

    My temperature control / regulation was lousy and I found my "dripping" skills were very poor.

    I need to do a bunch of "dry runs" with water but no chemicals and see if I can make some big improvements in my technique. Waiting until I get all of my already ordered equipment delivered should also help (a lot).

    I did a hammer test on the lead hipo with no bang.

    I made some EPH25 with NC from a 4198 puck and AL from filings.

    First, I loaded 10 primers with Unis Guinex SRP cups/anvils and with no paper discs. Then I made 20 with paper discs.

    I am using slow and tedious methods of assembly (handling each primer individually at each step) for the time being.

    I finished up pretty late, so I am doing ambient drying for now. I may put them in a 120 degf oven in the morning.



    I have also found that I can make NC powder pretty easy from 50/50 Promo and glass powder in a Mortar and Pestle. I will probably try of batch made with Promo next. I am also waiting on delivery of a set of sifting screens so I can get accurate particle sizes on my powders.

  18. #78
    Boolit Master

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    The determination and ingenuity of us gun guys is epic. Now, what bothers me. If a guy in his basement can manage this, why in the name of Zeus's butthole can't a small/medium company figure this out on a larger scale!

  19. #79
    Boolit Master
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    I took my 30 primers and went to seat them by placing them one at a time in my old round Lee hand priming tool with no cover installed.

    Three (10%) went off while seating the primer. I was not terribly surprised as I had more than few accidental squirts when I was supposed to be dripping solution from the small beaker to the big beaker. Here is the warning from the instructions available at MeWe:

    If you add two or more drops in the same place at once, this may constitute a concentration which can result in the formation of “lead nitratohypophosphite”, and may result in a premature, “impact sensitive” product, reducing the safety factor of EPH20.

    I initially checked my Lead Hypophosphite (a.k.a Lead Hipo) and it did not go bang, but I saw a warning somewhere that it might not go bang yet you may still have a little lead nitratohypophosphite mixed in.

    I fired some primed empties and the power level seemed consistent and as expected. All went off first try.

    I then assembled more than 100 more, but this time I seated the primers in a case before letting the primers dry. None went off with this process. I dried some primed cases in my PC oven at 120 degf for a couple of hours and test fired a few primed empties. They all went off fine.

    I loaded a little over 100 rounds. Mostly 38 Sp, a few 32s.

    I will keep playing with my current batch of Lead Hipo (very carefully) until I get more equipment delivered so that I can can make up a better batch.

  20. #80
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post

    If you add two or more drops in the same place at once, this may constitute a concentration which can result in the formation of “lead nitratohypophosphite”, and may result in a premature, “impact sensitive” product, reducing the safety factor of EPH20.
    The only video I was able to watch showed a generous amount of water/alcohol being dribbled onto the top of the primer. What do you suppose is the recommended technique? The PDF Homemade Primer Course depicts a syringe being used to put a drop on one side of the primer.

    I'd really like to connect all the dots before I start this procedure. Still awaiting my Sodium Hippo.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check