Making Sparkplugs: My first 100 primers

[Castloader]

I really think that any powder will work. If I cared to prove it, I’d use some Retumbo just to prove the point. Once it’s ground down to 100 mesh, it’s pretty much the same stuff. One small exception is the coatings that the granules sometimes get to get certain burn characteristics. These could have a slight effect, but I doubt it would be much. We just want some extra heat and the NC provides that. Over on Mewe, folks are grinding pingpong balls and reel-to-reel tape(also NC) and getting good results.

[Castloader]

On another thread I proposed…

All very valid. I hope you’re right. On the other hand, it’s possible that shop primer crafting like we’re doing might become more acceptable and a cottage industry might support it with fresh cups, anvils, tools etc. 12 million new gun owners in the US in the last 22 months and they’re going to be mighty interested in practicing with them. Something will give. It’s really wild to think that beside the time it takes, I’m making primers for about $4/thousand.

[P Flados]

-I never return excess powder to storage..

-I'm thinking that second cone point tamp might be skippable. I know you said it makes anvils easier to seat, was that with or without paper wads?

-I have no residual liquid anywhere. Are you referring to spillage on the plate?

I am currently mixing up 500 or so primers worth of EPH 25 and storing it in a plastic pill bottle. Because of the NC content with possible ignition from a small Lead Nitro crystal I decide glass was less safe. For use, I scoop out 1/4 tsp, spread it around to get uniform content, and then return the excess to my EPH 25 pill bottle. This is easy and it just works.

The cone point tamp gets the powder well packed in near final shape. When you add water it starts "setting up" chemically and forming a solid. The cone point tamp does make anvil setting easier, but it also makes for a more forgiving situation where I am not trying to "mush" an anvil point into a near solidified pellet if I take too long between wetting and seating.

Part of why I am doing the above is for a specific need. I want to be able to make primers that work well for later use. Yes I am doing wet priming and this meets my needs for winter shooting and for summer shooting for loads where I have ample cases (38 Sp & 9mm). I also plan to use "on the self" reloaded primers for regularly used loads where my case supply is limited and I need to reload in the summer when I have less spare time.

When I wet the primer, there is enough room in the cup above the well packed powder for about one drop of liquid. I like having the space about half full of liquid when I stop adding liquid. If I do it right it is almost all soaked in before I set anvils. The standard guidance is "a little too much is better than a little not enough". I do not get it right every time and sometimes if is closer to full when I stop adding liquid. Frequently I am dropping an anvil into a small pool of liquid.

[P Flados]

At what temp and how long are you drying primers in your oven?

When I wet prime cases that I want to load the next day, I am currently doing 2 hours at 120 °F, followed by ambient overnight, and at least another hour at 120 °F on the second day.

When I wet prime cases for use more than a day after priming, I only do the initial 2 hour bake.

If I am making primers for dry priming, I only use the oven if I am in a hurry (typically this is for testing something new).

[P Flados]

A couple of questions: Are cups and anvils interchangeable within manufacturers? I have several containers full. I take it that the acronym NC, used in this thread, refers to Nitro Cellulous. I also take it that you are grinding NC powder in a coffee grinder. If I'm right, can we use powder(s) collected from when we pull-down ammunition form unknown sources? This last question because I have a good sized bottle of mixed powders accumulated over time from this source. I had planned to use it for fire-forming, starting at three grains and carefully working up but if it can be used for emergency primer making that would be one more reason to continue saving it.

I have previously said that sorting by type is good and sorting by type and brand is better.

The above was my best guess at the time. Today I played a lot trying to get happy with some amount of mixing brands for cups and anvils. Very disappointing results. Castloader has made due with mixing because it is what he had. When he tries matched components, I expect he will find things easier and he will get better performance (few if any lost anvils, few if any need for second strikes, etc).

Bad combinations make "in plate" anvil seating by hand more problematic and less consistent.

I have changed my recommendation. Yes some brands may allow good results with some mixing. Do not bet on it until you have proven the specific mix you are interested in. My current best guess guidance is:

• Mixing type and brands will be a royal PITA and will adversely affect primer performance.
• All one type with mixed brands is likely to be a PITA and may adversely affect primer performance.
• Zero mixing may be something of a PITA up front, but is worth it.

If you are just thinking about reloading primers, and keep everything well sorted there is a good chance you will find that you will not use some of what saved. I used a lot of Fiocchi SPPs in recent years. Anvil removal is too difficult for me to bother with this brand of SPP. I also used a bunch of similar looking S&B primers that I consider great for reloading. Even if I had kept all my SPP separate from SRP, I would have lots of these two plus some other similar looking primers from range pickup brass. All in all I would end up tossing the good SPP with the bad because they were mixed.

If your mystery NC is flake or extruded, it is probably useful. Possibly mixed say 50 - 50 with a known fast burning flake. You will need to run some tests using a known "good" choice as a baseline. I have a gut feeling that magnum pistol and rifle ball powders are not a good choice.

[Castloader]

I am currently mixing up 500 or so primers worth of EPH 25 and storing it in a plastic pill bottle. Because of the NC content with possible ignition from a small Lead Nitro crystal I decide glass was less safe. For use, I scoop out 1/4 tsp, spread it around to get uniform content, and then return the excess to my EPH 25 pill bottle. This is easy and it just works.

This seems pretty sketchy. What if some of it starts to set up in the bottle? Humidity could be enough. I suppose if you use it fairly quickly...but this seems like a potential danger point. You'd only have to be wrong once. Also, I'm not understanding why you think a glass jar is more dangerous than plastic. It has lower friction and lower static concerns.

The cone point tamp gets the powder well packed in near final shape. When you add water it starts "setting up" chemically and forming a solid. The cone point tamp does make anvil setting easier, but it also makes for a more forgiving situation where I am not trying to "mush" an anvil point into a near solidified pellet if I take too long between wetting and seating.

Yes, I see that. I get the anvils in fast enough that I don't have issues. The longest time between wetting and anvil seating can't be more than 20 seconds or so.

Part of why I am doing the above is for a specific need. I want to be able to make primers that work well for later use. Yes I am doing wet priming and this meets my needs for winter shooting and for summer shooting for loads where I have ample cases (38 Sp & 9mm). I also plan to use "on the self" reloaded primers for regularly used loads where my case supply is limited and I need to reload in the summer when I have less spare time.

This makes a lot of sense. I should probably do something similar. I don't really have anywhere to store finished primers other than brass which I have a lot of.

When I wet the primer, there is enough room in the cup above the well packed powder for about one drop of liquid. I like having the space about half full of liquid when I stop adding liquid. If I do it right it is almost all soaked in before I set anvils. The standard guidance is "a little too much is better than a little not enough". I do not get it right every time and sometimes if is closer to full when I stop adding liquid. Frequently I am dropping an anvil into a small pool of liquid.

Got it. Yes, having too much water just means it takes longer to dry.

[Castloader]

When I wet prime cases that I want to load the next day, I am currently doing 2 hours at 120 °F, followed by ambient overnight, and at least another hour at 120 °F on the second day.

When I wet prime cases for use more than a day after priming, I only do the initial 2 hour bake.

Have you tried doing a test after just the two hours at 120°? I'd think that was enough.

[Castloader]

I have previously said that sorting by type is good and sorting by type and brand is better.

The above was my best guess at the time. Today I played a lot trying to get happy with some amount of mixing brands for cups and anvils. Very disappointing results. Castloader has made due with mixing because it is what he had. When he tries matched components, I expect he will find things easier and he will get better performance (few if any lost anvils, few if any need for second strikes, etc).

Bad combinations make "in plate" anvil seating by hand more problematic and less consistent.

I have changed my recommendation. Yes some brands may allow good results with some mixing. Do not bet on it until you have proven the specific mix you are interested in. My current best guess guidance is:

• Mixing type and brands will be a royal PITA and will adversely affect primer performance.
• All one type with mixed brands is likely to be a PITA and may adversely affect primer performance.
• Zero mixing may be something of a PITA up front, but is worth it.

If you are just thinking about reloading primers, and keep everything well sorted there is a good chance you will find that you will not use some of what saved. I used a lot of Fiocchi SPPs in recent years. Anvil removal is too difficult for me to bother with this brand of SPP. I also used a bunch of similar looking S&B primers that I consider great for reloading. Even if I had kept all my SPP separate from SRP, I would have lots of these two plus some other similar looking primers from range pickup brass. All in all I would end up tossing the good SPP with the bad because they were mixed.

I sorted out all the CCI anvils from my bag of mixed anvils. I probably have nearly a pound of just anvils, so that says something. It took me all day off and on, but I was quarantining so I had not much else to do. I suspect that my big stash of cups is mostly CCI, Federal and WIN. I haven't bought any other SPP's, and most of what I'm depriming is my own reloads. I'm sure I have a few other brands from range pickup but these three make up more than 95% or so of my stash. The Win are not nickle, so they're easy to separate. The Federal hate losing their anvils, so most of them are still wearing the anvils, leaving mostly a bunch of CCI's. With the cups and anvils largely sorted, I'm now basically remaking CCI 500's.

I concur with the guidance above for anyone who is watching this thread. Even if you know you'll never make your own, you can probably sell or trade them to someone who will.

As an aside, does anybody know what primers are used in LC 5.56 brass?

[jonp]

I've ground much aluminum foil in a cheap coffee grinder and it seems to work fine

[P Flados]

This seems pretty sketchy. What if some of it starts to set up in the bottle? Humidity could be enough. I suppose if you use it fairly quickly...but this seems like a potential danger point. You'd only have to be wrong once. Also, I'm not understanding why you think a glass jar is more dangerous than plastic. It has lower friction and lower static concerns.

The guidance I have seen at MeWe and elswhere indicates it is ok to mix it in bulk. The Lead Nitrate and AL are is denser than the other stuff and could potentially settle to the bottom in the right conditions. However, my stuff is so "fluffy" I do not see this happening the way I am using it.

Also, this is not long term storage. I am in my winter "holed up in the house - lets spend time in the reload room" mode. In the past week I have probably assembled around 1500 primers. I have 7 sleeves on the shelf and a similar amount in loaded ammo and primed cases. I have also sized / de-primed close to 3/4 of a gallon of 9mm and a gallon of 38 Sp. I have sorted the primers from all of the above. I have improved my anvil removal tooling and processed probably 1K cups and anvils (with indentation removal).

My concern with EPH 25 storage is getting ignition inside of a container that can build up enough pressure for the NC to transition from "slow burn" mode to "burn with a bang" mode. If a glass container were to "go bang", the glass fragments could be an issue. The pill bottle I am using is of a similar material to what we get factory gunpowder powder in.

[P Flados]

Here is a photo of my anvil removal stuff.

A strip of 1/8" AL with twenty 0.177" holes. This both holds the primer while prying out the anvil and it helps me screen out "mushroom" cups that are too big to work in my 50 hole reloading plate.

The piece of wood underneath the AL allows me to lift up the AL plate with cups and dump them into a bucket leaving the anvils in the tray. When all of the primers are done, I dump the tray full of anvils into a second bucket.

The "pry bar" is made from a paper clip. A piece of similar sized music wire would work better, but paper clips are cheap and I have plenty.

[P Flados]

Primers for 5.56 are made to a specific drawing that you can find out on the web. CCI 41 are made to this drawing. They do have thicker cups and shorter anvils.

For now, I do not plan to use reloaded primers for any loads above say 20,000 psi. Pierced primers are more likely with reloads. Too many pierced primers on high pressure rounds can lead to firing pin damage.

Truth be told, damage to an AR-15 firing pin would not be a big deal. They are probably the cheapest / easiest to fix firing pins in the world. Eventually I may go to reloaded primers for some AR-15 loads, but right now I want to focus on my "crisis" primers, SPP (I have just over one brick of factory S&B SPP).

[P Flados]

I sorted out all the CCI anvils from my bag of mixed anvils.

... I suspect that my big stash of cups is mostly CCI, Federal and WIN.

CCI anvils will slip into just about any cup without problems. They tend to fall out pretty easy so I am only using them for "wet priming" applications.

Your post explains a lot as far as your success with mixed. When I used a more random "mixed bag" of anvils, some of them have a "foot" that can catch on a square edged cup and just refuse to seat (RP and Winchester for example). From what I can tell, the brands with this style of anvil have cups with a distinct bevel on the ID of the cup entrance to prevent the foot from catching.

As noted in a previous post, I have been working on a bunch of primers freshly harvested from 9mm and 38 Sp cases. Even though it is a PITA, I have sorted / collected enough S&B (my reloads) and Winchester (range pickup of once fired white box ammo) primers for processing. I found the S&B to be great for reloading, easy anvil removal, easy seating, no lost anvils. I probably have over a gallon more of 38 Sp with S&B primers.

A couple of years ago I stopped reloading 38 Sp for our 357 guns. I just loaded 357 cases down to 38 SP power. I have been using a couple of hundred 357 cases for this purpose (mandating regular reloading sessions all year long). As a result of the above, I had several gallons of 38 Sp that I bagged up and put away. Primer reloading has resulted in a change in my approach. I plan to start using 38 SP cases again and "wet prime" (and possibly load) a bunch during the winter. I expect to load close to 2K per year of 38 Sp. Another load that will get similar treatment is 9mm.

[P Flados]

Have you tried doing a test after just the two hours at 120°? I'd think that was enough.

I probably should, but it has not been a priority yet.

For baking wet primed brass, my priority is to get rid of any free moisture quickly before it can cause problems. I use the plastic trays that come with factory ammo boxes to stand the cases with the mouth up. What I need is to get a few more 45 ACP trays. This will allow getting more 38 Sp cases in the oven per bake.

[Castloader]

I do the same with the ammo trays. I have dozens of them to facilitate various needs. The last two batches of 9mm were wet primed and dried in the Instant Pot in ammo trays, mouth up with a spacer under the trays to keep the heat from melting or warping the plastic. I’ve found that the heating element will make the bottom a bit hotter than the ambient temp.

1500 primers made! You’re doing well. I’m not retired and having to play Mom and Dad while my wife recovers from the Vid. It really shortens the available time I’ve got.

One factor for me is that I have a lot of brass. I can afford to focus on wet priming and just bag everything. I understand your needs to dry prime. I also consolidated my casting and loading over the last couple years. All my handguns are either 9mm or .38/.357. It simplifies a lot. I have been considering a 10mm though… I used to have .40, so loading for 10mm would not require anything but a brass purchase.

Understood with the plastic pill bottle. I recommend you thoroughly clean it in between batches.

I can remove anvils using nothing but a pair of forceps quite quickly. That’s an interesting anvil removing setup you’ve got.

I should probably do a short video on Rumble of how I pop anvils.

[mvintx]

I spent a few hours today, wearing a magnifier and using tweezers to segregate my collection of anvils. A good many of them appear to be CCI with the concentric circles on the inside. Most are hard to identify but I was able to separate them into 2 distinctive groups. One of them I believe to be Wolf SPPs I bought several years ago. Some of the other unidentifiable anvils look the same from the top but when you turn them over, they're different. Some have a sharp point where they contact the cup, others have a more rounded point.

This was not fun but I'm hoping it will help with consistency once I start reloading.

[P Flados]

I recommend not bothering to try to sort mixed primers.

Instead, sort old / pickup brass you have or can gather. Then decap in batches with the same headstamp. Inspect and sort primers from these batches based on primer color and anvil appearance.

Over the past few days I have tossed a bunch of fully processed cups and anvils into the recycle bin. I became convinced that my "I hope this is good enough" effort at sorting primers was a huge waste of time. I then dug out all of my stash of my old reloads and range pickup brass and started over with spent primer harvesting and processing.

The above may seem drastic, but after getting over the joy of getting some reasonable performance, I started thinking ahead. There is a danger to having ammo that is not real close to 100% first strike ignition. I am more willing to "experiment" than most handloaders and have experience with less than desired ignition reliability. The big danger is getting into the habit of assuming "it was just a primer that did not go off". Each and every time you pull the trigger on a live round and you are not sure the bullet left the gun, it is time to stop, take a break and wait a moment, open the action and then confirm the barrel is not obstructed. In the past, I have had a couple of near misses of pulling the trigger on a live round with a bullet stuck in the barrel. In my first trip to the range with reloaded primers, I had one squib with the boolit stuck in the barrel. It was easy for me to catch as the range was near empty that day, but that is not always the case. Even if you try to be good a checking your barrel, you can become distracted at the wrong moment and make a big mistake.

After sorting a bunch of range pickup brass by headstamp, I did some test runs with primer processing to identify those worth the effort to gather and process. My list of "favorite headstamps" is: CBC, PMC, S&B and Win. My list of "ok headstamps" is CCI, Fed and RP. I am not going to bother with any other brands.

Below is a photo of today's S&B anvil extraction just before I finished that step. Note the "new and improved" pry bar made of much stronger steel. I am at about 80% through indentation removal on this batch.

[Castloader]

What is your criteria for “good” vs “ok”? Anvil removal? Cup thickness/sensitivity?

I’ve also had a couple squibs with, I think the second batch, same one that was giving me hangfires. Also a few that seemed to clear the barrel, but were going so slow, they barely made it to the target. Shooting with these reloaded primers definitely requires even more attention to detail and situational awareness than normal shooting. Since switching to EPH25, my results have improved drastically in terms of eliminating those issues. Now when they go bang, they do it with attitude. I like to fire one or two from each batch in an empty case. The big flash tells me we’re in a good place. My only remaining issue is the revolver. I think I’ll pop the original spring back in and see if that fixes the re-strike problem.

[mvintx]

I recommend not bothering to try to sort mixed primers.

Instead, sort old / pickup brass you have or can gather. Then decap in batches with the same headstamp. Inspect and sort primers from these batches based on primer color and anvil appearance.

I think this is excellent advice. The amount of time I'm spending trying to identify and segregate anvils is a P.I.A. The CCI's are easily identifiable but the others require close inspection to determine their make. Better to harvest the known makes to start with rather than picking through the two or three gallons of accumulated primers from past years. I've picked up so much range brass over the years, plus SRPs and LRPs are also contained in the mix.

Also good of you to mention watching out for squibs. They say confession is good for the soul. I had one this summer in a 10mm cast load. I've always heard that with a squib, you'll at least hear something. All I heard was the sound of the hammer dropping. Nothing else. Since I was having feed issues with this load I assumed that somehow the empty case did not eject. So I popped out the empty case, loaded another round and fired. There was a bit more recoil than normal but I suspected nothing until I cleaned the barrel and saw a distinctive 'ring' in the bore and could feel a bulge in the barrel. That was a $265 mistake. I fit a new barrel and was test firing with the same load and the same thing happened. No noise, no nothing. Sticking a wooden dowel into the barrel I could feel the bullet stuck just ahead of the chamber.

I later weighed that batch of 200 rounds that I had loaded last February when it was 18 degrees outside. I reload in my barn with a diesel forced air heater and for some reason I cannot explain, I found 5 additional cartridges in that batch without powder. The saying goes, "Fool me once and shame on you". You know the rest.

As soon as my coffee grinder shows up, I'm in business.

[P Flados]

What is your criteria for “good” vs “ok”? Anvil removal? Cup thickness/sensitivity?

There are several brands that are just to much of a PITA for anvil removal.

I did not rate the following as favorites for the following reasons:

• CCI is not rated better due to having issues with anvils falling out.
  
• Fed is known as having "soft cups". They seem to have more than typical mushrooming even in 380s, 38s, etc. I will probably run all Fed through the sizer just to keep things smooth going into and coming out of the loading plate.
  
• RP anvils have distinct feet that make seating anvils a little more difficult.
  

Once I get all of this into more of a routine, it is likely that I will size all cups just to make things easier when putting cups into the loading plate. If and when I make that change, Fed becomes another favorite.