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Thread: 357 mag neutered

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy dogdoc's Avatar
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    357 mag neutered

    I was looking through some of my old Speer manuals especially number 11 from 1987. When this one was printed they were still using 46000 cup as max pressure for the round. In the early 1990s Saami set about
    35000 psi limit for 357 which I know is not convertible to cup. Anyway I was comparing load data to a current manual and noticed a significant decrease in many loads. I am sure many of the old loads at 46000 cup that I and many others used then without problems would be over the 35000 psi limit if measured now . No wonder I can now have a Smith J frame 357 mag! No doubt the 357 mag was down graded , all you have to do is look at older data. I guess it’s better for my Smith k frame magnums as well but not too worried about my n frames with older data.

    Dogdoc

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


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    lots of data dropped when cup went to transducer data/psi instead.

  3. #3
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    zarrinvz24's Avatar
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    38 Special is much the same, and no longer commands any of the respect it once did. I’ve noticed the Magtech 158gr factory loadings that are commonly available are only running about 1280fps from a 6” 27-2. That’s only slightly above a hot .38 reload. That’s why I have become more and more commited to casting and reloading, the ability to create .357 ammunition as Mr. Keith and Mr. Sharpe intended.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Being able to load hot ammunition is all well and good but, and it is a big but, the people making modern firearms are making them to current SAAMI standards. Not the standards from back in the day.
    Use modern data for modern firearms. When you run hot loads you risk a lot.
    If you need a more powerful cartridge, get a bigger gun.
    There are lots of powerful cartridges available now that were not available to Keith and other pioneers.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Tokarev's Avatar
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    All while steel quality has increased and the barrel thickness has as well, from my humble observation.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    All while steel quality has increased and the barrel thickness has as well, from my humble observation.
    Yes they have.
    Still, why push the limits?
    Just buy a more powerful gun.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy badguybuster's Avatar
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    Its not about "pushing limits". The cartridge was designed with specific potential in mind, fear of liability has caused the reduction in power.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    lots of data dropped when cup went to transducer data/psi instead.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    This
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master derek45's Avatar
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    my first reloading book was the SPEER 10

    it has some stout 357mag data

    ….which then and now work fine my my 686’s

    I don’t shoot max loads all the time, but I’m pretty sure the L-frame was designed for early 1980’s era loads


    Last edited by derek45; 11-22-2021 at 07:08 PM.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master Tokarev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Just buy a more powerful gun.
    Each gun has its purpose. I am a 44 Mag kind of person but it does not mean that I would not use 357, and if I do, I want it to deliver what it can.

  11. #11
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    With the 357 ammo produced today has to be safe in everything from a Winchester 92 to a Ruger LCP.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    This is why I am a fan of "357 Mag +P" loads in strong action firearms. The brass, primers, and boolits are very capable, it's only the pressure limits of modern firearms that hold you back. I load my 357mag Encore to modern rifle pressures on occasion and don't worry because the gun is designed for it. Of course, I make darn sure those loads are unusable in my other guns by exceeding the OAL the others will accept.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    No need to exceed current published data, book loads of Alliant 300-MP will get you to original velocities or mighty close. Accurate, too.
    Last edited by Silvercreek Farmer; 11-22-2021 at 06:26 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarrinvz24 View Post
    38 Special is much the same, and no longer commands any of the respect it once did. I’ve noticed the Magtech 158gr factory loadings that are commonly available are only running about 1280fps from a 6” 27-2. That’s only slightly above a hot .38 reload. That’s why I have become more and more commited to casting and reloading, the ability to create .357 ammunition as Mr. Keith and Mr. Sharpe intended.
    1280 fps with that kind of payload is not even close to a 38 load. Which is understandable because even 35k psi is still ~double the pressure of a hot 38 load.

    Quote Originally Posted by badguybuster View Post
    Its not about "pushing limits". The cartridge was designed with specific potential in mind, fear of liability has caused the reduction in power.
    Actually, the cartridge was designed with a specific pressure in mind, based on the engineering of the gun (there was only one then). What we've learned since then with better equipment is that some of those older loads were way beyond what was anticipated for the cartridge. I suspect that's more of why the loads have pulled back, not any fear of liability, as any gun is proofed for way higher pressures than the "limit" of its cartridge.

    I have reloading manuals from the 70s and 80s, and the same is true with other cartridges, even with rifles. The powders are no different; the velocities are still similar with the same load. It's the modern equipment realizing just how high those pressures are that have changed.

    I don't anticipate there's much of any load that'd tear up an N frame or a Redhawk/GP 100, but there's no reason to push it--357 Magnum still has tons of power, even 80+ years after its release.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by downzero View Post
    1280 fps with that kind of payload is not even close to a 38 load. Which is understandable because even 35k psi is still ~double the pressure of a hot 38 load.
    It’s possible to approach 1100fps from a 6” Barrel using the 38+P, 20K loads. That’s not enough of a difference from the 1280 Magtech loading to really make a difference. IIRC, I believe 20K was the original pressure limit and 22.5k the original +P for .38Spl - which puts them on even more equal footing. I don’t disagree that .357 has significantly more power, I was just trying to say that in the current anemic factory loadings, it’s not loaded anywhere close to even current SAAMI spec. For most of us, and nearly any practical application - a decent .38Spl will do all we ask and then some. It is as you said, if you need more, you need to step up to a larger caliber or preferably a rifle.
    Last edited by zarrinvz24; 11-23-2021 at 12:42 PM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Rodfac's Avatar
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    Being able to load hot ammunition is all well and good but, and it is a big but, the people making modern firearms are making them to current SAAMI standards. Not the standards from back in the day.
    Use modern data for modern firearms. When you run hot loads you risk a lot.
    If you need a more powerful cartridge, get a bigger gun.
    There are lots of powerful cartridges available now that were not available to Keith and other pioneers.
    Very well said...Rod

    BTW, while I rarely have need for full house modern .357 loads, let alone the old barn burner offerings, I do have .357's in J, K, L, & N frame Smiths as well as a trio of Rugers. With that in mind, especially the J frame M-60 that's one of my favorite carry around the farm guns, I never load above modern data levels...there's just no need...as an example, we've put down horses with the .357, safely and with great sadness & without resorting to the much higher pressure levels of old data. Do as you wish, they're your hands and eyes...but I'm no ballistician and will happily conform to the lower limits. R
    Last edited by Rodfac; 11-23-2021 at 11:58 AM.
    Rod

  17. #17
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    I bought my brand new 357 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk in 1970 along with a brand new up to date 1970 Speer Manual for Reloading Ammunition , Number 8 and a set of RCBS Reloading Dies and a Lyman #358156 single cavity HP !
    Still have the Blackhawk , Reloading Dies , mould and Speer#8 Manual ... I have always loaded for accuracy and never got into Maximum Loads ...( except once and we stopped that foolishness ... when a load has expanded the primer pockets so much the primers keep falling out ... it's time to drop that load .)
    Too old to change now ... I'll just keep on keeping on with my pet loads .

    I have bought a couple newer Speer Manuals... it was here I was informed (warned) about Speer #8 ... Hey ...No One told me Speer didn't know what they were doing ... reloading testing like Elmer Keith ... the top strap blew !!!
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by badguybuster View Post
    Its not about "pushing limits". The cartridge was designed with specific potential in mind, fear of liability has caused the reduction in power.
    It wasn’t fear of liability that lead to the reduction, it was the reality of guns (especially Smith K frames) being very short-lived when fed a steady diet of 46,000 CUP ammo.

    Ask Outpost75 for the Border Patrol test from the 1980s.

    I can’t confirm, but I’ve read that 46,000 CUP is equivalent to 43,500 PSI. So that’s a roughly 20% reduction.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I have no qualms about firing original spec .357s in my GP-100. It was designed for it. The fact that there are guns that were not designed for it is of no consequence, as far as the GP is concerned.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy dogdoc's Avatar
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    Yea I don’t think the older loads in Speer 10 and 11 were blowing up guns. What it does for me is I don’t worry too much as I still use some old data

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check