Lets talk Bean Bags and other Non Lethal Payloads.!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was at my local 3 gun shoot last weekend and laying on teh signup table was this weird looking thing. It looked like a small cloth Octopus.

I picked it up and it had shot in the head of it. It was essentially some thin fabric tied like a Bindle with the excess forming some legs.

Big lightbulb turned on,,, ! It was a Bean Bag!

I have seen plenty of bean bags but never one that looked like this. Most I have seen were canvas squares like Ravioli with shot inside. This one actually looked like it could be relatively accurate, and the legs would "Drag Stabilize" it.
Maybe it was a "Long Range Bean Bag?"

I'm always looking for different rounds that I can load myself and launch with my shotguns, and these looked like good candidates if I can figure out how to make them. Getting hit by a 1oz load of shot contained in a sock running at 3-400 fps would definitely make an impression, but probably not be lethal.

BPI has had those little missile looking rubber slugs on their website for a long time and they are never in stock, so they are out. I have looked at making my own using TPS Wads filled with silicone, however they wouldn't fly strait on a bet, and I haven't figured out a way to make them "weight forward" like a Foster Slug so they would fly strait.

Anyway I am looking for suggestions and info on these types of projectiles, and any and all ideas are welcome.

Randy

[Scrounge]

I was at my local 3 gun shoot last weekend and laying on teh signup table was this weird looking thing. It looked like a small cloth Octopus.

I picked it up and it had shot in the head of it. It was essentially some thin fabric tied like a Bindle with the excess forming some legs.

Big lightbulb turned on,,, ! It was a Bean Bag!

I have seen plenty of bean bags but never one that looked like this. Most I have seen were canvas squares like Ravioli with shot inside. This one actually looked like it could be relatively accurate, and the legs would "Drag Stabilize" it.
Maybe it was a "Long Range Bean Bag?"

I'm always looking for different rounds that I can load myself and launch with my shotguns, and these looked like good candidates if I can figure out how to make them. Getting hit by a 1oz load of shot contained in a sock running at 3-400 fps would definitely make an impression, but probably not be lethal.

BPI has had those little missile looking rubber slugs on their website for a long time and they are never in stock, so they are out. I have looked at making my own using TPS Wads filled with silicone, however they wouldn't fly strait on a bet, and I haven't figured out a way to make them "weight forward" like a Foster Slug so they would fly strait.

Anyway I am looking for suggestions and info on these types of projectiles, and any and all ideas are welcome.

Randy

There ain't no such thing as a non-lethal weapon, Randy. About the best you can do in that regard is "not-always-lethal" weapons. If it has enough mass and velocity to hurt, it can kill. All it has to do is hit a soft spot, thin bone, or bruise a major nerve junction, and the person or critter hit can die.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a Lady LAPD that lives down the street from me. During the LA Riots last year. her and her girlfriend were assigned to go to "Downtown LA" and help out. They were in Chatsworth so it was a long ways away from their home base. There weren't any Patrol Cars to take so they took the Girlfriend's Toyota 4 Runner.

After a while on the line they turned around and saw the girlfriends car burning! She quickly ran to the car and got her shotgun and 4 boxes of Bean Bag rounds. The crowd was pretty unruly throwing bottles and Molotov Cocktails at Police and after about an hour and shooting 94 rioters in the butt with her bean bags. Her supervisor finally came over and told her "that was enough." and that they'd pay for her vehicle. There was alot of bruised butts that went home that night, as She was not the only one shooting that day, and nobody got killed, because nobody dies from taking a non lethal round in the butt. But it certainly does alter behavior!

Rifle Sights help with accuracy and all the LAPD 870's I've seen have them.

Some might say this is insane, but if more of this ammo was used, less property would be damaged and the left wing anarchists, would be a little less emboldened. Which is exactly what they have become with Police being told to stand down and no enforcement on riotous behavior.

What we are about to see this coming weekend will be a Replay of a year ago in Kenosha WI, when the jury comes back with a verdict that the left wing doesn't like. Wonder if the Police will just stand back and let them go nuts again?

Just sayin' Still looking for ideas on alternative projectiles?

Randy

[Scrounge]

I have a Lady LAPD that lives down the street from me. During the LA Riots last year. her and her girlfriend were assigned to go to "Downtown LA" and help out. They were in Chatsworth so it was a long ways away from their home base. There weren't any Patrol Cars to take so they took the Girlfriend's Toyota 4 Runner.

After a while on the line they turned around and saw the girlfriends car burning! She quickly ran to the car and got her shotgun and 4 boxes of Bean Bag rounds. The crowd was pretty unruly throwing bottles and Molotov Cocktails at Police and after about an hour and shooting 94 rioters in the butt with her bean bags. Her supervisor finally came over and told her "that was enough." and that they'd pay for her vehicle. There was alot of bruised butts that went home that night, as She was not the only one shooting that day, and nobody got killed, because nobody dies from taking a non lethal round in the butt. But it certainly does alter behavior!

Rifle Sights help with accuracy and all the LAPD 870's I've seen have them.

Some might say this is insane, but if more of this ammo was used, less property would be damaged and the left wing anarchists, would be a little less emboldened. Which is exactly what they have become with Police being told to stand down and no enforcement on riotous behavior.

What we are about to see this coming weekend will be a Replay of a year ago in Kenosha WI, when the jury comes back with a verdict that the left wing doesn't like. Wonder if the Police will just stand back and let them go nuts again?

Just sayin' Still looking for ideas on alternative projectiles?

Randy

I'm thinking after last year, there may be less of the "don't hurt the poor innocent rioters" sentiment. Even the mayors in Portland and Seattle got a little disgruntled after their homes were targeted.

[GhostHawk]

It appears there is money to be made here. 35$ to 45$ for 5 rounds?




https://wolfhillammo.com/12guage2-34dutybeanbag.aspx

[GhostHawk]

The majority appear to be a cotton/kevlar "sock" where the shot is tied in the front portion. And some of the sock is allowed to remain behind as a "drag stabilized" round increasing accuracy. https://external-content.duckduckgo....6pid%3DApi&f=1

[Finster101]

I'm thinking after last year, there may be less of the "don't hurt the poor innocent rioters" sentiment. Even the mayors in Portland and Seattle got a little disgruntled after their homes were targeted.

Funny how things change when it starts happing in their own yard isn't it.

I see no reason for a private citizen to have non-lethal ammo of any kind. You would just be asking to go to jail for using it. We are not the police doing crowd control. We do not have the legal protections the police have. If you feel threatened you use lethal force to remove the threat.

[Rick R]

For what it’s worth bean bag rounds are “Less Lethal” as in less likely to cause death.
“Non-lethal” is normally chemical spray, batons (properly used) and a real TASER not a flea market zapper thingie.

The tailed bean bags are more modern than the ravioli shaped bags because they’re more accurate and likely to hit the approved strike zone instead of catching some air and beaning the poor misunderstood dood with the knife between the eyes.

“Less Lethal” force is still lethal force so as a non-law enforcement muggle you’re going to get Rittenhouse levels of attention if you shoot someone with one because if you chose less lethal you probably weren’t that fear’d for your life.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The ones shown above were exactly the same as the one I saw last week. As far as the Legalities of using them,,, I have not advocated using them on a person.

We have Mountain Lions coming into our neighborhood, but killing one would be worse than shooting a person.

A good solid hit with Bean Bag would probably make them think twice about coming back and dining on our Dogs or Cats or one neighbors Goats.

One of the kids on the street videoed a lion walking down the street a few months ago. Operative word being "Walking!" He was not concerned in the slightest about being around Humans. This is not the type of wild critter I want near my house.

Randy

[Winger Ed.]

[QUOTE=GhostHawk;5301451]It appears there is money to be made here. 35$ to 45$ for 5 rounds?



They shouldn't be hard to make with #8 or #12 shot. Maybe even rock salt.
I'd figure they'd be easy to build with 'T' shirt cloth, or pieces of blue jean legs that had been cut off to make shorts.
Hold the shot in with a rubber band, and load them in a 3" shell to have a little extra room.

The 'T' shirt cloth is thinner, and might burst open on impact.
If that's an issue, a circle of iron on blue jean patch on the front end should fix that.

[Winger Ed.]

We have Mountain Lions coming into our neighborhood, but killing one would be worse than shooting a person.

Hmmm. I'd heard that a few years ago after they'd killed a few joggers, they weren't so protected any more out there.

[longbow]

Slightly off topic but... a few years ago I tried making slugs like that except they were round balls wrapped on cloth with tails. Didn't work so well with round balls, accuracy was pretty poor.

Not sure how the lead shot bags fly but hopefully better than the round balls.

I used my 65 lb. oak flatbow shooting arrows with rubber blunts to deter bears from re-visiting our yard. Worked pretty well, and quiet!

I think you'd want a suppressor or a Metro barrel for your shotgun Randy!

Longbow

[M-Tecs]

Slightly off topic but... a few years ago I tried making slugs like that except they were round balls wrapped on cloth with tails. Didn't work so well with round balls, accuracy was pretty poor.

Not sure how the lead shot bags fly but hopefully better than the round balls.

I used my 65 lb. oak flatbow shooting arrows with rubber blunts to deter bears from re-visiting our yard. Worked pretty well, and quiet!

I think you'd want a suppressor or a Metro barrel for your shotgun Randy!

Longbow

Never fired one. Per LE friends that have the accuracy and range are very limited.

Yes I know it Wikipedia but it mirrors what I have been told.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean_b...d%20projectile.

The bean bag round consists of a small fabric "pillow" filled with #9 lead shot weighing about 40 grams (1.4 oz). It is fired from a normal 12-gauge shotgun. When fired, the bag is expelled at around 70 to 90 metres per second (230 to 300 ft/s); it spreads out in flight and distributes its impact over about 6 square centimetres (1 sq in) of the target. It is designed to deliver a blow that will cause minimum long-term trauma and no penetration but will result in a muscle spasm or other reaction to briefly render a violent suspect immobile. It still can cause serious injury and death. The shotgun round is inaccurate over about 6 metres (20 ft) and has a maximum range of around 20 metres (70 ft). Changes to the bean bag round since its inception in the early 1970s have included a velocity reduction from 120 to 90 meters per second (400 to 300 ft/s)[2] as well as a shift from a square shape to a more rounded sock-shaped projectile.

[dverna]

Randy,
I am not envisioning where a citizen defending himself would use less than lethal force.

[LaPoint]

I've shot a bunch of the drag stabilized bean bag rounds and chronographed a few of them. They ran about 230-250 fps. When fired, even from an 18.5" barrel, they have almost no report and essentially no recoil. You would have no need to use any type of sound suppressor. As mentioned previously they hurt like hell and leave a huge bruise. The target area is from the knees to the upper chest area. The directive was that the groin area was the bullseye but don't hit the bullseye. I also thought about making some of them but other than to say that I could do it there was no reason to make them. In MN unless you're a law enforcement officer using less lethal weapons pointing the muzzle of a firearm at someone is considered deadly force.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't know what I would use these on other than animal control. However I am always looking for ideas, and if SHTF then all legal bets are off, and we'll shoot whatever we need to, to survive. We might not need to end someone everytime but make just a lasting impression instead.

AS far as Defense against Would be Attackers with Mal Intent? I would not be using these. It's Buckshot and Slugs all the way. I'm located kind of out of the way in a semi rural area, and the standard response time for the Sheriffs at night is 10-20 minutes. So the need to protect the home is real. Sheriffs told me to do what I needed to, and they would clean up the mess.

Why do you think I've been to 30 Front Sight Shooting Classes over the last 15 Years?

6 of those were Tactical Shotgun Classes!

Not going down for lack of training!!!

Randy

[GregLaROCHE]

When I started reading this, I thought real beans were being loaded.

[M-Tecs]

I've shot a bunch of the drag stabilized bean bag rounds and chronographed a few of them. They ran about 230-250 fps. When fired, even from an 18.5" barrel, they have almost no report and essentially no recoil. You would have no need to use any type of sound suppressor. As mentioned previously they hurt like hell and leave a huge bruise. The target area is from the knees to the upper chest area. The directive was that the groin area was the bullseye but don't hit the bullseye. I also thought about making some of them but other than to say that I could do it there was no reason to make them. In MN unless you're a law enforcement officer using less lethal weapons pointing the muzzle of a firearm at someone is considered deadly force.

What do you feel the effective range is? What type of accuracy have you seen.

[LaPoint]

What do you feel the effective range is? What type of accuracy have you seen.

We qualified with them at 25 yds. It wasn't a problem to keep them in a 12" group at that range. Effective range?? Hard to say. In over 20 years of having to be proficient with them I never deployed them in the field. I'm not aware of anyone of the 60+ LEOs in the city or county having used them. Policy dictated that you had to have "lethal cover" if you were going to use a Less (likely to be) Lethal weapon/system. I'm not a huge fan of them for LE work as it's too easy to accidently load a lethal projectile, slug or buckshot, into the magazine when the adrenaline is flowing.

[Blood Trail]

I have a bunch of rubber buckshot I got from the owner of sharpshooters molds: #4, #00, and .690 RBS. Haven’t loaded up any yet.


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