The rifle I used this year was shooting 3" at 600..... And I shot my buck at sub 75 yards.
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The rifle I used this year was shooting 3" at 600..... And I shot my buck at sub 75 yards.
Doug
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Sticks and stones may break my bones but hollow points expand on impact.
Taxidermists are cheaper than surgeons....keep shooting
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Some people measure success in Minutes of Angle
If factory ammo is available, the first test is to use that and see if the results are more consistent. If the factory ammo is more consistent, you can look to improving the reloads.Originally Posted by white eagle
If the factory ammo is also not consistent, then it's a rifle issue. Stock fit, bedding, scope mounts, the scope itself - some part of the rifle may be causing the problem.
I once had an old .303 SMLE. Thinking back, that was around the time I started getting grey hairs. I would get it zeroed with a scope, and the next time at the range, it would refuse to touch anywhere on the paper. I never did figure out why, I just got rid of it.
We hunt river bottoms and 33 yards in 40 years is still my longest shot. Just last Friday evening I watched a 10 point big buck walk to 25 feet of me as he was watching one of the land owners beefy's out in the pasture. I was sitting in my ground blind downwind and smelling like an apple. Any blunderbuss would have done the job.
"Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.
When we are teaching our Hunter Ed classes here in SW Oregon we like to tell the students that if you can`t hit a 9" paper plate at the distance you are shooting , you are shooting too far.
I think think a 9" vitals area will cover the kill zone of any deer here in the US.
I`m sure we all want our loads to shoot better than 9 MOA.
For a deer rifle in the woods: I want at least 2.0moa at 100yards. The gun I normally hunt with is a 30.06 Ruger MKII with a scope. It will easily meet the minimum requirement. I need it to be at least that accurate—so, I can wobble around another inch or so.
Everyone for the most part sights in at 100yds, and usually shoots a deer at 40 yds or less. I don't think I would be hunting with a gun that can keep them in a pie plate, for my peace of mind I would divide that area by two or what I like to call "a softball" at 100 yds, even then I would still try to dial it down if I was using optics. Open sights?.....at 100 yds I would be happy if I could keep the boolit in my zip code! LOL
Since you asked for deer rifle and a sight in at 100 yds I will assume your long shot will be out to 150 give or take. My next question is what caliber and boolit weight and at what speed. Example... my 45-70 hunting load with a 300 RF is 1200 at the muzzle. I zero at 100 which is my longest shot and CTC for 3 shots is less than 1.5 inches. Until I checked my POI at a longer distance I would not take a longer shot. In the same circumstance's with my 35 Remington running a 200 at 1850 I would take a longer shot. Same accuracy on both rifles. I do shoot all my hunting loads with a cold barrel and one hot barrel shot just for piece of mind. BUT having said that I have never had to take a second shot on a deer, (knocking on wood) not that I am a world class shooter but I don't take a shot that I'm not 99% sure I can make. As a backup I carry a 44 special blackhawk for any needed shots under 50 yds.
My own personal concern is the cold barrel shots POI. In my area opening day lows are in the high 40's and highs in the high 60's. By closing day the lows can be teens and highs in the 40's. For most of my guns this makes no difference enough to matter out to 100. But I do have a couple that will throw the cold barrel shot 5/6 inches out when temps hit the 20's. So groups are not as important to me as cold barrel shots on hunting rifles.
Tony
If you are using 3 shot groups, it will be difficult to dial in an a "good" load. There it too much variation, and one group may be good and the next group sucks. You need multiple 5 shot groups to establish an accurate load...no way around doing the work. Three shot groups will tell you if your load sucks but not if it is good.
If you are using 1" at 100 yards as your "standard" then I am guessing you are shooting jacketed bullets. IMO chasing a consistent 1 MOA load with cast bullets is a waste of time and resources...it is extremely difficult to accomplish.
As others have said, if you limit your shots to shorter ranges (under 150 yards), cast is OK and a 3-4 MOA load will suffice. I suspect if most folks were honest, 3-4 MOA is what their are getting with cast bullets. Ignore the "wallet groups" that get posted. And by "honest", I mean the average of five 5 shot groups with "fliers" counted...not the cherry picked group. But heck...good enough is good enough.
If you NEED 1 MOA, buy jacketed bullets.
Here is how I test with jacketed bullets. I start with a COL that has a .020" distance between the bullet and the lands and a powder known to be accurate in the cartridge. I load 5 rounds in .3-.5 powder weight increments. Start at the low end and work my way up.
I fire three shots and if those group well, I fire the other two. If not, I pull the bullets and salvage the components. I work my way up until I reach the maximum for that powder/bullet or see sings of pressure.
I then see if there is an accuracy "window" where two or three groups have shot well. Using the average powder weight of that "window", I load up 10 rounds (confirmation load) and fire two 5 shot groups. If those group well, I load up 25 and shoot five 5 shot groups. That is "the load". If the 10 round confirmation loads do not perform as expected, I shoot five shot groups with powder charges above and below the average powder weight (established above). If that fails, I switch to a different bullet first and then to a different powder.
If you want to do less loading and shooting, look up using a load ladder.
https://www.loaddevelopment.com/load...r-test-method/
I have no confidence in load ladders but many swear by them. My issue is that there is enough shot to shot variation that I do not trust the results at 100 yards and I do not have a 300 yard range to play on. Plus I do not like using a chronograph. I like shooting groups and in the end you need to shoot groups anyway.
Don Verna
Millions of animals killed long before 1" accuracy.
Ethical Kill vs Meat in the freezer
apparently I have set up a parameter that is really problematic
I have always strived for and most often attained a 1"or less with custom handloads
but after hearing all of you my goal may have been a we bit high
I feel a whole bunch better about my current rifle and handloads as of now they are a
consistent 1.5" @ 100 yards with a 225 gr ballistic tip and a bit bigger with 225 gr Sierra's
3 shot groups works for me everyone has there own way of doing things
been using 3 shot groups for as long as I have been handloading
I am a hunter first a target shooter second never had a deer stand for 5 shots so
the first shot is what counts for me cold barrel accuracy not warm barrel accuracy
Hit em'hard
hit em'often
For my hunting firearms from rest. My revolver ( 3 moa red dot sight) 460 S&W 8 3/8”, using my 400 grain cast bullets - sub 4” 5 shot groups @ 100 yards. My Marlin GG 45-70 using my 430 grain cast bullets - sub 1 11/2” 5 shot groups @ 100 yards. My primary hunting rifle - using 250 grain Barnes TTSX bullets, sub 2”, 3 shot groups @ 300 yards. memtb
Last edited by memtb; 11-16-2021 at 11:12 AM.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“LETS GO BRANDON”
A group is not made of 3 shots IMHO. 5 is bare min to be called a group 10 is better.
IMHO the 3 shotter's are afraid to fire more as the know it will grow in size Just MHO
What is the point of shooting a group? What information do you need from it? I build NRA service and match rifles. I need to know what they will do from cold bore too hot with a ten shot string in 60 seconds. I have a Savage 99 that is solely a hunting rifle. It starts walking really bad after the third quick shot. It shoots very nice three shot group. Not so much for 5 and forget 10. Since it will never fire more than 3 shots hunting 3 shot groups are fine for that application.
Kind of the point of the whole thread. What do you need for your specific application?
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
thats me, i am a hunter. i used to do (non-competitive) target shooting that was measured in .001". the best group i ever did was .179" at 100 yards that was a tc encore with 23" heavy factory barrel in 20 vartarg using 32gr hornady v-max with a charge of rel7 with 10 shots and on the bench and they were CAREFUL handloads, trimmed to a specific length, outside neck turner, weighing cases and bullet to be the same...........all that "fun" shi........i mean stuff. i was averaging around a .220-.230" group. now its a average 1/2 - 3/4" group at 100 yards (5 shots/sandbags) with 34gr hp(either midway or midsouth, depends on who cheaper) and rel7.
i use a 9.3x57 and a 35/30-30 with cast boolits. the 9.3x57 is using a 275gr wfn gc with imr4895 and it goes around one inch at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). i never did the chrony on the 9.3. it is wearing a 2-7x leopold. the 35/30 is using a 200gr fn gc with 2400/dacron and it goes 1726fps and it will go 3/4 - 1 1/2" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench) with aperture sights.
i'm just a average shooter. i used to above average, but i had a stroke about 10 years ago. it took me a LONG time just to be average shooter, flinching was the worst problem i had/has after the stroke. long range isn't fer me, i hunt, although i sit alot in my stands!!! in my area, i'd say that 125 yard shot is a long one. the longest shot i ever did was around 375+ yards(back before the laser range finder things) on a doe. the shortest shot was 12 feet on a 8pt.
Ad Reipublicae his Civitatum Foederatarum Americae, ego sum fortis et libero. Ego autem non exieris ad impios communistarum socialismi. Ora imagines in vestri demented mentem, quod vos mos have misericordia, quia non.
To the Republic of these United States of America, I am strong and free. I will never surrender to godless communist socialism. Pray to images in your demented mind, that you will have mercy, because i will not.
MOLON LABE
Geezer, I have to agree.....if we are referring to load development. The groups that I referred to were previously developed loads......the groups fired were to verify my hunting zeros! And yes, more shots would likely increase group size. That said, I have rarely fired more than 2 shots at game. The 3 shot group mentioned uses 93 + grains of powder per shot and the projectiles are about a buck each.....components are expensive and limited! In this case 3 shots serves the purpose, or at least my purpose! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“LETS GO BRANDON”
I have a farmer/rancher friend that views his rifle as a tool and nothing more. Its a 270 Remington 700ADL. I installed the scope and glass bedded it in the mid-70's. We sighted it in at the time. Every year he takes one shot to confirm POI. He kills a buck, a gratis tag buck and a bonus doe every year plus a bunch of coyotes. His one shot yearly group works well for him. He purchased 40 boxes of Rem Coreloks for $2.00 a box in the early 80's when the hardware store went out of business. He still has about half remaining.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-16-2021 at 11:00 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Weigh your matching headstamp cases ...........
I won't tell the whole thing anymore , long/short I had a very touchy about case volume rifle . My fliers weren't fliers they were a different case volume by about 1 pellet of #6 shot . You can't imagine the frustration of 3 shots with less than a dia between them and 2 kissing but 12" away at 100 yd ......
Long ago the Winchester ads read " For a moment the whole world is a 4" circle" . That's about as true as anything else . I've long struggled to get 1.5 MOA , and my favorite rifle would deliver that ......... Until that summer that I plotted every target on a centered bull .
I don't what I expected from a 1965 Savage 110LH with an $89 Tasco Pronghorn on it . I'd shoot 1.5" groups of 5 every trip ........ At the end of the summer I had about 300 rounds plotted on a single target compiled from 20-25 rounds per Saturday for 3.5 months the circle was 3.5" .
I had plenty of confidence that out to 400 yd I could put the first one where it needed to go and a second or 3rd if it was needed .
To ensure that I was developing focus I would slam a 20oz Coke on the 10 minute drive to the range set up my bench sling the rifle and long leg it out to set the 100 yd trot to the 200 yd and walk as fast as I could back to the bench and shoot from a field position , sitting , kneeling , post leaning , or over the pack anything but sitting at the bench or prone . In the field it paid off , it is really hard to shoot when you force a breathing hold and the scope blacks out because you're heart is racing and you're not getting enough fresh air ........ Good times .
In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.
I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .
Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18
Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .
I was happy to have my .44 mag rifle do 3" @ 100 yards. Plenty good enough for my whitetail needs.
These are the reasons people shoot 3 shot groups:
They are not capable of shooting accurately.
Their guns are not accurate.
Their loads are not accurate.
They cannot afford to shoot.
To confirm sight settings have not changed once they have developed, and proven an accurate load.
Don Verna
hearsay!!!!! pagan!!!! disbeliever!!!!!! heathen!!!!!!! infidel!!!!!!! unbeliever!!!!!! 3"?!!!!!!! it better do sub minute group at 600 yards with 20 shots!!!!!!!!!
i used to be "one of those guys" too. "if it can't do a sub minute groups of 10 or 20 shots, get rid of it." i would say. been there, done that.
today, i took my encore rifle with a 23" barrel in 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and hs-6(goes 1235fps) and i sighted it in at 50 yards. its 3" high and about 1 1/4" group(3 shots). its going to be my truck gun this season. on rainy days, i go out into the game lands, park my truck and wait fer deer. (i have a disability permit). 75 yards will be a long shot, but it will probably be 30-40 yards. last year i took the 500L out to the range and sighted it in at 100 yards and i believe the 5 shot group was around 2 3/4 - 3"+/-. i took it to the 50 yard target to find out how high it was and it was about 3+" high.
if i was good at pistol shooting, i'd take my ruger sbh(4 5/8" barrel) in 44 mag and 280gr wfn with unique. but i'm not good with it at 100 yards. my one armed butt isn't good at 50 yards, but if a deer comes in to 30 yards, its mine. my group size is about 4" at 35 yards. at 40 yards, it all goes to pot. 6+'" is the group size. (my brother can shoot 3" at 50 yards, 5 shots with same gun and loads).
3" at 100 yards with 3 shots in a revolver type caliber is good enuff fer me.
Ad Reipublicae his Civitatum Foederatarum Americae, ego sum fortis et libero. Ego autem non exieris ad impios communistarum socialismi. Ora imagines in vestri demented mentem, quod vos mos have misericordia, quia non.
To the Republic of these United States of America, I am strong and free. I will never surrender to godless communist socialism. Pray to images in your demented mind, that you will have mercy, because i will not.
MOLON LABE
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