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Thread: Acceptable Hunting Accuracy at How Far?

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    And don't forget that making lever action cartridges hit an animal is very different from having your boolit function as you'd want when it gets there. "Far" can become a problem.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    For me, a hunting rifle has to be comfortable to carry, shoulder, and shoot. The ones that I love best for hunting, are seldom the most accurate from the bags. The rifle that I can shoot .5 MOA groups with, doesn't do me much good if I can't carry it all day and quickly shoot 6 MOA with it at 0 - 100 yards.

    Wouldn't it be great if we all shot our deer rifle as well as we shoot our handy little 22 plinker. jd
    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoodat View Post
    For me, a hunting rifle has to be comfortable to carry, shoulder, and shoot. The ones that I love best for hunting, are seldom the most accurate from the bags. The rifle that I can shoot .5 MOA groups with, doesn't do me much good if I can't carry it all day and quickly shoot 6 MOA with it at 0 - 100 yards.

    Wouldn't it be great if we all shot our deer rifle as well as we shoot our handy little 22 plinker. jd
    That is precisely why my old 98a Mauser in .30-06 always came home with me on leave. If it got down to the last day of deer season and I still had a tag, old faithful went hunting. It didn't matter what new toy I was trying out, I knew that my 06 would work.

    Robert

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoodat View Post
    Paper plate range is the criteria by which I determine my hunting rifle accuracy. Doesn't matter if I'm shooting at 25 yards, or 400 yards. If I can't reliably put my shots on a paper plate, (around 8"), I'd better improve the rifle, or the optics, or shorten up the distance. This method also determines whether or not I should be shooting from a rest, or am competent enough to shoot off-hand. jd
    This is pretty much the same criteria I use, with a slight modification: I centre a pie-sized "paper plate" on my big one first, tracing around its edge with a Sharpie or Magic Marker. This actually -- to my eyes -- presents a better aiming target, too.
    geo

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I zero my hunting rifles to strike 3" high at 100 yards, which gives a point- blank range of 150 yards in a .30-30 class rifle, 125 yards with a .44 Magnum or 200 yards with a .30-'06. I keep a 12" square cardboard target in which I record the first shot from a cold barrel each time I go out, and another for the subsequent 5 shots. Accumulating range sessions my expectation for a 5-shot composite of First shots fired from a cold barrel not to exceed 1 mil, and a 20-shot composite not to be appreciably worse. The first shot may strike a bit out of the group of subsequent shots, but a good rifle and load should produce a 20-shot composite no worse than 4 inches firing one group per week, repeating the cold, clean barrel test four times.
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  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoodat View Post
    Paper plate range is the criteria by which I determine my hunting rifle accuracy. Doesn't matter if I'm shooting at 25 yards, or 400 yards. If I can't reliably put my shots on a paper plate, (around 8"), I'd better improve the rifle, or the optics, or shorten up the distance. This method also determines whether or not I should be shooting from a rest, or am competent enough to shoot off-hand. jd
    Pretty much this. Most of my levers will hold at least 2MOA at 100 yards, but minute of pie plate is about all one needs to reliably kill deer. Most of my shots are 60 yards and under.

  7. #27
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    Large targets help you get smaller groups with iron sights or red dots. To shoot iron sights well you need to look at the front sight, not the rear sight or the target. If your bullseye is too small you will have bad form and stop looking at your front sight so you can find the bullseye. A huge bullseye is easier to center when it is out of focus from focusing on the front sight. I can shoot nice groups at 100 yards when I make my own targets for iron sights. I like a 6-9" white circle at 50 yards and at least 9" white circle at 100 yards. That is for a flat top post front sight. A humongous bead like some guns come with nowadays requires a larger target to center the bead and see a nice even ring of white around it.

    I like to use coffee can lids with a wire through the middle for a handle. Set the lid on a piece of computer paper and spray paint (matte black is best) a ring around the lid. I have also used bucket lid stencils on larger pieces of paper or white pizza boxes. Try it! And then realize in how accurate your iron sight guns are when you can focus the front sight and still see a blurry aiming point. After all, do you hunt 1" orange stickers at 100 yards or 4 feet tall, 5 feet long deer? It is really easy to shoot iron sights on large targets like game or steel silhouettes compared to an impossibly small bullseye sticker meant for a 16x scope.

    Also if you are shooting a lever action on sandbags rest the gun on the receiver, not the forearm. Or if you are resting it on the forearm you have to be holding the forearm with your hand and snugging it into your shoulder. If you loosely rest the forearm on a bag it might shoot high, low, left or right when you actually hold the thing and shoot it.
    Last edited by mnewcomb59; 11-11-2021 at 01:14 PM.

  8. #28
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    Large targets help you get smaller groups with iron sights or red dots. To shoot iron sights well you need to look at the front sight, not the rear sight or the target. If your bullseye is too small you will have bad form and stop looking at your front sight so you can find the bullseye. A huge bullseye is easier to center when it is out of focus from focusing on the front sight. I can shoot nice groups at 100 yards when I make my own targets for iron sights. I like a 6-9" white circle at 50 yards and at least 9" white circle at 100 yards. That is for a flat top post front sight. A humongous bead like some guns come with nowadays requires a larger target to center the bead and see a nice even ring of white around it.

    I like to use coffee can lids with a wire through the middle for a handle. Set the lid on a piece of computer paper and spray paint (matte black is best) a ring around the lid. I have also used bucket lid stencils on larger pieces of paper or white pizza boxes. Try it! And then realize in how accurate your iron sight guns are when you can focus the front sight and still see a blurry aiming point. After all, do you hunt 1" orange stickers at 100 yards or 4 feet tall, 5 feet long deer? It is really easy to shoot iron sights on large targets like game or steel silhouettes compared to an impossibly small bullseye sticker meant for a 16x scope.

    Also if you are shooting a lever action on sandbags rest the gun on the receiver, not the forearm. Or if you are resting it on the forearm you have to be holding the forearm with your hand and snugging it into your shoulder. If you loosely rest the forearm on a bag it might shoot high, low, left or right when you actually hold the thing and shoot it.
    Last edited by mnewcomb59; 11-11-2021 at 01:13 PM.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    I'm agreeable with a 2-3'' grouping at 100yds with a Winchester 1894 carbine sighted 3'' high for Eastern woodlands hunting.

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I ordinarily verify the zero on a rifle with shooting sticks rather than a bench rest. This shows me what kind of capability I have with a somewhat shaky rest. I can make decent groups off shooting sticks, however they are usually a little up, down, right, or left depending on how I am shooting that day. I can nearly always make a group print within 2 inches of the bullseye regardless of which rifle I am using. Did this yesterday in fact with two Marlin .30-30's and my Remington 700 6.5 Creedmoor. The .30-30's are zeroed at 100, centerfire bolt guns are zeroed at 150.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.

  11. #31
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    See Outpost 75's post #25 - good wisdom there.

    On "deer sized game" a solid hit in an 8" circle that's centered on the heart will get it done.

    I shrink that to 6" for the sake of "standards". If you then plot your zero to give you a trajectory that climbs no higher than 3" before starting it's fall back to the zero, and figure out how much further it goes to drop the other 3", you have your maximum point-blank range for the round. This allows you to engage quickly without having to fire up your meat computer on the morning when you're low on sleep and low on coffee.

    How far you can go with that depends greatly on the cartridge you are shooting of course. For the average tube-fed, blunt bullet lever gun, you may be able to coax it out to a tad over 200 yards with some of the modern powders.

    Acceptable grouping for these brush guns? 2 MOA holds that 6" circle with room to spare at 200 yards, where many of the rounds used have started to drop like Lead Zeppelins. When you consider that you are unlikely to shoot as well as the gun can from a field position, there's a point of saying "good enough - let's go hunting"
    WWJMBD?

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  12. #32
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    Do whatever you feel is necessary at whatever range you think is necessary at the rifle range. That's all fun and games. The real test is to have someone put a paper plate up weeks later at some unknown distance away. Take your clean rifle, cold barrel, and one cartridge. Determine the distance, establish the correct sight picture (knowing the trajectory of your cartridge and knowing what sight picture to use) and take ONE shot. If you can't judge the distance and put a bullet on that paper plate, you now know the problem is marksmanship (YOU) and not precision (The RIFLE).

    Learn your sights, learn the trajectory of the cartridge, and learn to determine range. Know the limits of the tool in your hands. I go out in the evening as the sun is setting and take sight pictures of different colored objects with my open sights on my Winchester. At a certain time, the front sight just disappears and getting a sight picture at longer 100 yard ranges is impossible. Given those light conditions, a closer shot of <50 yards is needed.

    So....your skills will determine the range you can shoot to. Your skills matched with a precision tool will be the determinant factor. Can you nail that paper plate at some range, in thicker clothing, in dimmer light, while shivering, and while second guessing the range you estimated?

    The field is completely different than the range. The range determines precision. The field determines marksmanship.

    Let's not kid ourselves either. The front sight at 100 yards covers a lot of target making precision shots extremely hard to take. At 200 yards with open sights, you are barn-door capable - not 6" capable.

    BTW, the steaks I had in Sydney were the thickest best tasting steaks I have ever had. I will NEVER forget the all beef foot-long hot dogs with mashed up peas on top. Man were they good with an ice cold glass bottle of milk. That was decades ago when the Sheila's were prettier! Gday
    Last edited by Tar Heel; 11-15-2021 at 06:21 AM. Reason: punctuation

  13. #33
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    I shoot mainly wild pigs at ranges up to 100yds. I like using my aperature sighted 50/70 which is as accurate as I need.

    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tar Heel View Post

    Let's not kid ourselves either. The front sight at 100 yards covers a lot of target making precision shots extremely hard to take. At 200 yards with open sights, you are barn-door capable - not 6" capable.
    Like I said above, most people can't shoot iron sights properly. Don't assume my shooting skills based on what you can do. Same thing with guys who can't shoot handguns for beans telling me how I shouldn't shoot at deer with a handgun because they know they can't hit a paper plate at 7 yards. 200 yards is no problems at all if you quit looking at the target and start looking at your front sight.

    We have a silhouette league with 200 yard rams. The only gun I have that I have to work hard for hits is the 6 inch security six. Out of all my hunting firearms this one has the front sight closest to my eyeball. If I focus my front sight the 200 yard ram is so blurry it disappears. The "problem" is that I have to look about 6" beyond my front sight to have the ram clear enough to line everything up. This leaves the front sight very slightly out of focus, but still with enough clarity to hold towards the front if they call my hit back, or hold towards the back of the ram if they call my hit at the front edge. I don't shoot at game at 200 yards with this gun but I will have some fun on the range to practice my fundamentals. Making hits at 200 yards with a 6" revolver gives you skills and confidence to do it with a longer barreled revolver or a rifle. This Security Six has no problem shooting 4" at 100 yards and less than 1" at 25 yards.

    If you are barn door accurate at 200 yards that means you need to go back to the basics and focus your front sight and quit focusing on the target. You will never shoot a 1" orange sticker at 200 yards, but if you shoot at a sufficient sized target like a steel silhouette, large paper target or big game you can center your clear front sight on the hazy target and make small groups.

    Look at the first picture in this link. Your target should be blurry. If your target is in focus you will not shoot small groups. https://applied-ballistics.com/sight...ght-attention/
    Last edited by mnewcomb59; 11-15-2021 at 11:07 AM.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Well just butter my butt and call me a biscuit. Go get 'em Lông Trắng.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    My limit for sights is 100 yards, and more like 60 in dim light. It really annoys me how there aren't very many choices in compact rifle scopes these days. The little 1-3x20 Weaver on my 336 Texan is perfect for hunting in the woods. Compact, tough, more than enough magnification out to 100 yards. And no, you don't need a 50mm objective to see the target in fading light, the little Weaver will get it done. Alot of manufacturers these days don't make anything less than 40mm except for rimfire scopes.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    I zero my hunting rifles to strike 3" high at 100 yards, which gives a point- blank range of 150 yards in a .30-30 class rifle, 125 yards with a .44 Magnum or 200 yards with a .30-'06. I keep a 12" square cardboard target in which I record the first shot from a cold barrel each time I go out, and another for the subsequent 5 shots. Accumulating range sessions my expectation for a 5-shot composite of First shots fired from a cold barrel not to exceed 1 mil, and a 20-shot composite not to be appreciably worse. The first shot may strike a bit out of the group of subsequent shots, but a good rifle and load should produce a 20-shot composite no worse than 4 inches firing one group per week, repeating the cold, clean barrel test four times.
    I will be doing what you suggest. I am fortunate that my range is off my back porch so it will not take long to gather the data.

    I never shoot a clean barrel when hunting so I can dismiss that as a criteria.
    Don Verna


  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master jmorris's Avatar
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    Acceptable Hunting Accuracy at How Far?
    You need something that can deliver a fatal wound, quick enough they can’t get so far away you can’t find them.

    I have killed lots of stuff that shot patterns instead of groups (shotguns) but not at very extended ranges.

    I have also killed lots of pigs in traps with .22 LR’s I wouldn’t call accurate at long ranges but drop them in their tracks inside 20ft, after they present the right head shot.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Rapier's Avatar
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    I live in the SE, so most of our shots are close, in comparison to the west. I figure 1” is fine for a big bore, like a 35 or 45 cal. I do load to my own standards though, about .5” at 50.
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  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    Ugh, tonight I missed a really big doe at 100 yards. Perfect broadside shot and I was sitting leaned back against a tree with my Remington 700 6.5 Creedmoor that easily does 1" at 150. Mebbe I should take up something easier like stamp collecting...
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.

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