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Thread: 44 Magnum, .429 or .430 sizer?

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    44 Magnum, .429 or .430 sizer?

    I am purchasing all my reloading tooling as the funds become available.
    38 S&W, 9mm, 45acp, 45 colt and 45 Raptor, done.
    7.63x39/54R, .308 and 30-06, done.
    I intend to purchase a 44 caliber revolver with a 6" barrel and 44 lever rifle in the future, and in regards to gas checks, they offer sizer dies in both .429 and .430, and I'm unsure as to which to get and why.
    Also as far a casting molds, LEE offers some that cast .429 and some in .430, and either size can be had with and without gas checks.

    BTW, I also noticed I will have the same issue with the 38 spl/357 Magnum molds and sizers.

    Here is the thing.
    It seems obvious that
    .429 sizer is for the .429 bullets/gas checks
    and
    .430 sizer is for the .430 bullets/gas checks

    However

    Do I assume
    .429 for low pressure?
    and
    .430 for high pressure?
    or
    .429 for revolvers?
    and
    .430 for rifles?

    but then I would also think.
    no gas check for low pressure.
    and
    gas check for high pressure.

    The gas checks are only offered for both diameters but only on the heavier bullets like the .429 @240 grains and the .430 @310 grains that I assume at such a heavy weight is only intended for rifles?

    I thought I had a good grasp on all the basic aspects of reloading until I started researching the 44 and 38/357 caliber reloading tooling.
    Last edited by archangel2003; 10-31-2021 at 05:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Not sure where to begin.

    The size (diameter) of your boolits is dictated by your weapons barrel and throats. Bullets should be sized to .002" over the barrel lands, or for a revolver sized to a push/slip through the cylinders? In 44mag, I have Dan Wesson and Ruger Redhawk pistols and a Rossi R92 lever-gun. None of them use the same sized cast bullets. That's not to say there aren't weapons that will take the same sized bullets (because there are), but mine don't and you can't know until you have the weapon in hand. Even the same brand/model revolver will be different from gun to gun.

    Shooting in the dark as you are without specific 44 mag guns in hand, I would not for a second believe .429" would work in hardly anything. .430" would be the smallest I'd consider and wouldn't be surprised if .431 wasn't a better choice.


    Edit added: if you can get a copy of Beartooth Bullets, Technical Guide by J. Marshall Stanton, it is full of cast bullet to firearm information, and any one of the Lyman Bullet Casting manuals as well.

    Edit 2: Cut out a bunch trying to be nicer.
    Last edited by oley55; 10-31-2021 at 06:57 PM.
    “Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” Ronald Reagan


  3. #3
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    I use .430 or .431 for all my 44Mag loads, depending on the gun. I haven't used a .429 sizer on anything 44 (.429), but there may be some applications for it. Try pushing a sized boolit though the cylinder of your revolver, you will want it to pass through with a slight bit of resistance. If it just drops through it may be on the small side. Just my $02.

  4. #4
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    ShooterAZ's Avatar
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    Oley55, please cut a little slack here. He's just looking for a little help!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I think what oley55 is saying is that if I had never before ridden a motorcycle and do not know how to drive one, it would be silly of me to go to a Harley shop and purchase the biggest bike I could and expect to drive it off the lot to home. Having bought all the accoutrements for the bike like a proper leather jacket, a Nazi helmet, skeleton mouth wrap and bad ass biker glasses will not help much either.

    Your questions allude to a novice loader/caster and questions are good to ask. My initial response to your inquiry was, "this guy is going to blow himself up" since he appears to be trying to run before he can walk. None of us are trying to offend you however and all of us will be polite and courteous. We just don't know how to best respond to your question. "Where to start" comes to mind.

    I, like oley55, suggest you begin by consuming all the material you possibly can regarding reloading and bullet casting. I see that you have been a member here since 2013 so perhaps you have been lurking and reading a lot already. For the bullet casting aspect of our hobby, one of the best booklets you can read is From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners located here on the LASC web site: http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm
    That comprehensive document will address your two indicated questions in great detail.

    As oley55 indicated briefly, the bore size or cylinder mouth size will determine your bullet size. Gas checks are sized with the bullet so a 44 caliber GC will be either .429 or .430 depending on what you are sizing the bullet to.

    You may not even need gas checks. I drive plain base 45 caliber bullets to 1700fps with a hard alloy and great lubricant.

    So two of us are suggesting some serious reading if you have not already done so. Again, not trying to offend you but your question(s) make a response difficult.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterAZ View Post
    Oley55, please cut a little slack here. He's just looking for a little help!
    edited for slack.
    “Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” Ronald Reagan


  7. #7
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    First rule? Don't Assume ANYTHING. This is the easiest and CHEAPEST way to NOT get off on the wrong foot.

    Wait until you get the gun before you buy the first die. Some S&W 44 magnums have throats in the .433"+ range, you would need to size to fit these throats, not what the barrel measures. .429" and .430" is what commercial jacketed boolits measure. Most cast boolits would be .431" with the .430" a distant second. I say this because I hone MOST 44 cylinders to .4315" for use with .431" boolits. Cast boolits IMO work well .001" greater than groove diameter, throats sized .0005" greater than boolit diameter insure boolits are delivered to the barrel at intended diameter. This arrangement works very well in every centerfire revolver cartridge regardless of caliber.

    If your entry level 44 is 44WCF now you got sizing dimensions of a totally different animal to contend with and for sure you will want the guns in hand before you venture into choosing boolits and boolit diameters.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  8. #8
    Boolit Man
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    Thanks for the info and I will read up more on the subject.
    I have reloaded for 308 and 30-06 for fun and 9mm 45acp and 45LC because I'm becoming too cheap to pay modern prices and it all seemed rather straightforward, and 12 Gauge was something I got into a year ago or so and was interesting to say the least.
    .452 for 45acp and 45LC and .454 for 45-70.
    There is .309 for the 308/30-06, and .312 for the 7.62x39/7.62x54R and the sizes were recommenced.
    The thing is, I'm not going to blow myself up, and the last time I owned a 44 Magnum was in the late 1980's when everything was cheap and plentiful and reloading was something only competition shooters and SERIOUS hunters ever bothered to do.
    Now with the recent threats to the 2nd amendment, I am just making sure I can shoot everything I own and then some, and making sure those family members who inherit my guns can do no matter what those idiots in Washington decide to do.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Welcome and howdy. No shame in being new and asking questions to wrap your mind round it.

    Some 44 caliber guns will do fine with bullets .429, some okay with .430, some need larger. It’s the nature of the caliber, and of manufacturing slop. Most of the 44 mag guns are made to jacketed specs. There is a lot more leeway when using jacketed bullets. A rifle might have a .432 groove and do just fine with .429 jacketed bullets. Whereas you’d need At least a .432 cast bullet.

    Gas checks allow higher pressure without leading. They also allow a gun that has a bit of thread choke to shoot without major leading. Thread choke is where the barrel is screwed into the frame and is slightly constricted. The bore there will be from .0005 to .003 smaller. That plays little difference in jacketed performance but will not allow cast to shoot without inaccuracy and leading unless it’s very minimal.

    Not everyone sizes to throat diameter. Some size .430 with .434 size throats and their accuracy is fine. It’s a try it and see kind of thing.

    Die sets are not equipped for these fatter than standard bullets. NOE bullet mould company makes expanders that fit the lee universal expander die body, that allow brass to be expanded larger to accept fat bullets. The reason that you need a larger expander is because the brass case will swage the bullet base down from (example) .432 to .429. I suggest an expander that is .001 smaller than bullet diameter.

    Gas checked bullets work okay with normal expanders because the gas check resists being sized. Gas checks are an all around good thing except they take an extra step in making your bullets, and they cost something more. Some folks say bad things in regards to gas checked bullets. I say it’s an easy way to get ammo for an otherwise ornery gun. Don’t rule them out.

    I shoot both gas checked and plain based bullets and I size to .431 for my gun.

    Bullet diameter, .429,.430,.431 makes no difference in pressure, and no difference as to which guns they are intended for. The options are there to accommodate specific size variations between guns. Custom mould makers like “accurate” moulds will make them any size you need.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master dkf's Avatar
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    I size to .432" most of the time. I buy most sizers under the size I need by .001" or .002" and then polish them to size on my lathe. Reason I do that is because many sizers are rather rough on the inside. Especially Lee sizers. Polishing them to myself allows me to get the sizer bore very very smooth.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    I have S&W .44 magnum revolvers and two rifles in .44 magnum, a Winchester 94 and a Henry Big boy.

    Get a .431" sizer to start with and then contact lee and have them custom make a .432" sizer for you. (or you can hone out a sizer yourself)
    Maker of Silver Boolits for Werewolf hunting

  12. #12
    Boolit Man
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    So, what y'all are saying is if I shoot something out of a 44 and it does not work well, slather the bullet in powder coating to make it pretty and be done with it? LOL

    I actually do have some very tiny/little brake wheel cylinder triple stone hones that I used back when I was just starting out as a mechanic and disk brakes were considered new technology.
    I don't know if I have one that small though.
    If it comes to that, I probably can hone them out.
    I used those hones to get a better fit for my AK trunnion to fit on the barrel.
    Yeah, they used to clean up brake cylinder and master cylinder bores and replace the pistons/"O" Rings rather than just replace the whole thing.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I do like post #3-in 44 mag. A gas check will help if you go fast. An Elmer Keith Lyman 255 grain is my better accurate mold with out a gas check. Mine drops at .431.
    Last edited by 45DUDE; 11-02-2021 at 12:41 PM. Reason: word

  14. #14
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    44 mag has a long torrid history.
    Last edited by JonB_in_Glencoe; 11-08-2021 at 04:58 PM. Reason: removed my opinion/experience
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  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I size my revo boolits to .429 after coating and checking, if needed.
    Size is determined by a couple of factors that need to be known to make a good cast boolit
    bore diameter and cylinder throat diameter make your choice dependent of those
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    .431 is a good place to start.

  17. #17
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    What I have learned over the last 50 years is ...
    Whatever sizer you buy ... you usually need the next larger or smaller size .

    The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual sized their 44 special and magnum boolits to .429" and is a good place to start ... but so many variables in barrels , bores and tolerances ...you just never know exactly what size a revolver will want/need .

    44 magnum ... buy three dies .429" .430" and .431" this should cover any handgun and rifle needs but ...
    Chances aregood that .432" gun is lurking just waiting for you to buy it !

    I have gotten by with:
    .357" & .358" for 38 spcl / 357 magnum & 9mm Luger
    .451" & .452" for 45 acp
    .429" & .430" for 44 Special Revolver ...
    .431" is for a Rifle , Rossi lever action .

    What I'm trying to say is ... One size is never enough ... if you are ordering sizer die just go ahead and order two or three becuase at some point in time you will be sure to need it .

    NOE sells a bullet sizer that has interchangable bushings and they come in a plethora of sizes
    Check out their sizing kit at the shop www.noebulletmoulds.com it's a neat set up .
    Gary
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    Proud Member of The Basket of Deplorables
    " Let's Go Brandon !"

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
    What I have learned over the last 50 years is ...
    Whatever sizer you buy ... you usually need the next larger or smaller size .

    The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual sized their 44 special and magnum boolits to .429" and is a good place to start ... but so many variables in barrels , bores and tolerances ...you just never know exactly what size a revolver will want/need .

    44 magnum ... buy three dies .429" .430" and .431" this should cover any handgun and rifle needs but ...
    Chances aregood that .432" gun is lurking just waiting for you to buy it !

    I have gotten by with:
    .357" & .358" for 38 spcl / 357 magnum & 9mm Luger
    .451" & .452" for 45 acp
    .429" & .430" for 44 Special Revolver ...
    .431" is for a Rifle , Rossi lever action .

    What I'm trying to say is ... One size is never enough ... if you are ordering sizer die just go ahead and order two or three becuase at some point in time you will be sure to need it .

    NOE sells a bullet sizer that has interchangable bushings and they come in a plethora of sizes
    Check out their sizing kit at the shop www.noebulletmoulds.com it's a neat set up .
    Gary
    This!

    I am looking into a .429 Sizer for a recently acquired FA 97 in .44Spec. Should have done it a long time ago for a converted S&W Model 28. Luckily I had a RCBS 44-250 mold that cast very close to that.
    John
    W.TN

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Shopdog's Avatar
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    There's also the notion of shooting them,"as cast" .... as in,no sizing. Good luck with your project,and please report back...
    (Not directed at OP) it's the "polite" thing to do. Folks spend time to respond,trying to help and the questioner goes,MIA.

  20. #20
    Boolit Man
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    I will report back but it will be a while and it all depends on when I get the 44 caliber revolver and lever gun.
    I'm getting all my expected supplies first for intended use in the future.
    I have an odd work schedule and truly hate attempting to reply to anything using that tiny little phone which is the only thing I have 90% of the time, so only when I am on the computer is when I have the time and access to check personal emails.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check