Thought on Why WW's

[RogerDat]

At one time Wheel Weights were everywhere, by the ton and really cheap to free. It would make sense that they would be the "goto" source for casting alloy. Now days the supply of COWW's has gotten pretty thin and not all that cheap. This got me thinking.... (wife says that is a dangerous thing but what does she know? She married me and I'm the one that married "up" so who is the thinker and who ain't is up for debate in my mind)

We always talk about WW's as a source for casters, does this mislead or do a disservice to new casters? For many we are all but sending them on a snipe hunt. As well as setting them up to find scrap that is difficult to cast with or adjust into a good casting alloy.

Might their intro to casting be better served by finding out what they want to cast and suggesting what to purchase from Rotometals or other foundries? Or what alloy to post as WTB in the S&S forum? For approx. $40 a SFRB of decent casting alloy should be obtainable from other members in S&S or the new member can go hunting WW's and scrap, hope for the best.

At the same time I think encouraging people to find the sources for lead or pewter in their area is a good thing. Can save them money and the treasure hunt is rewarding in its own right. At least for me. But starting out? I had to pass a crash course in alloys (that focused on COWW's) and then come here early and often to figure out what I found. Then try to cast first bullets using a pretty dubious alloy.

I'm actually pretty decent at scrounging lead now but I as do many others all but ignore WW's as a source. They are the cheapest source but they also are difficult to find and a bit of hassle to process. I would add that I cringe when I read of a new caster using their commercial casting pot to melt WW's due to all the crud and contamination. Not a problem if they buy some foundry lead to start. Clean ingots.

Our recipes are based on what the previous times provided for source material, wheel weights. Is that the right recipe given current sources? At least for folks just getting started?

[ABJ]

I agree 100%. The scrap yards in north GA still have scrap sheet lead (mostly pure lead) that can be found and not that expensive. Use this to blend down to the alloy you want or need when using type metals. Also, encourage the use of the alloy calculator. As a general rule of thumb, COWW used to be .5/3.5 and was an okay general purpose alloy. By adding tin and and a tad more antimony it was an even better alloy but still softer than 2/6(hardball). Even range lead is getting harder to get a hold of now and the newer indoor catch systems render it useless to us casters because the jackets are not broken. I posted three recipe's today on another thread how to blend down type metal.
I put extra care into my alloy because I am a Bullseye shooter and my accuracy needs are a little higher than the average person needs or for that matter even wants. Most of my casting friends just want to throw in some WW-cast-lube-load and shoot. I try to give a recipe with an easy to obtain type metal and pure to arrive at a suitable alloy for there needs. I am of the opinion that either side of 2% tin and either side of 4% antimony will serve the average person's needs just fine as long as they are not pushing the envelope on speed and pressure. Getting close to these numbers is close enough.
Tony
Edit; I forgot to mention the alloy calculator is free and available on this site. Boy does it make life simpler when playing with alloy construction.

[Rickf1985]

I will wholeheartedly agree with Roger Dat on this, especially after my last foray into WW scrounging. I did end up with 48 lbs. of WW for free but you have to consider what I went through to get them. If you are not familiar with the zinc and steel weights then it is best left alone. ALSO, In my quick testing with cutters on the smaller ones that don't thud or ring on a vice when you hit with them I have found that there are many different hardness's. Some are so soft the cutters go right through and others they dent pretty good but do not cut at all. Compared to zinc that does nothing but scratch. And aluminum is sort of by feel. I don't worry too much about the aluminum since they will never melt in a lead pot. Oh yea, I forgot to mention the flexible semi magnetic powdered plastic coated steel ones and the other plastic covered ones that can be zinc (marked zn) or steel or ????.

[Rickf1985]

I will wholeheartedly agree with Roger Dat on this, especially after my last foray into WW scrounging. I did end up with 48 lbs. of WW for free but you have to consider what I went through to get them. If you are not familiar with the zinc and steel weights then it is best left alone. ALSO, In my quick testing with cutters on the smaller ones that don't thud or ring on a vice when you hit with them I have found that there are many different hardness's. Some are so soft the cutters go right through and others they dent pretty good but do not cut at all. Compared to zinc that does nothing but scratch. And aluminum is sort of by feel. I don't worry too much about the aluminum since they will never melt in a lead pot. Oh yea, I forgot to mention the flexible semi magnetic powdered plastic coated steel ones and the other plastic covered ones that can be zinc (marked zn) or steel or ????.

And I also plan on making ingots from the 48 lbs. of zinc weights also so not a lost trip for me.

[bangerjim]

The key word here is "CHEEEEP". Many of us here were around when Pb WW's were easy to get and many times free. Now they are too darned cheap to buy Pb and alloys, so they just keep conjuring up old "war horse" stories of the old COWW days.

The blame for new people not wanting to buy commercial Pb/alloy is partly our fault for 1) just being downright cheap. 2)bragging about all the free "scores" we used to get and rarely see today. I hate these posts that are titled "SCORE". Many of those rarities are few and far between. I enjoy finding Pb and alloys around at the scrap yards now & then, but I do not start a post bragging about it every time I find something good.

New people have a hard row to hoe with finding cost-effective Pb/alloy.........and now primers & powders! The cost of com-ammo just keeps goin' up, but so do the raw materials we need to roll & load our own cast.

New people must get familiar with the FREE alloy calculator featured on here and look for the raw component to brew up their own mix, be it COWW or Lyman #2 alloy equivalents. And not rely on posts on here asking people how to mix stuff! Figure it out on your own. I do.

I am fortunate to have been around back in the "goode olde daze" of COWW' s being everywhere and very inexpensive, but I would not think twice today about buying the components I need, either on here (excellent source) or from ROTOMTALS. And do NOT trust anyone on evilbay selling alloys, unless you personally know them. Sellers on this forum can be trusted................or they are GONE!

Old casters - count your blessings (and ingots ) you have COWW alloy squirreled away somewhere for mixing & casting.

New new casters - keep up the search and be willing (if needed) to shell out some $$ for alloy, if you really want to cast your own.

Good luck!

banger

[Rickf1985]

Back then you could actually save money by casting your own bullets. I was doing the math the other day and no matter how I worked it the costs were very close to bought ammo. Primers and powder are so expensive now that they negate the advantages of making your own ammo. BUT, With that said, the advantages are that you can make whatever load you want. I like old military bolt guns and I know for a fact that my Springfield 03A3 shoots lead boolits a lot more accurately than it does FMJ's. And it does so with less powder so you have that going for you.

[dverna]

New folks will learn quickly if scrounging is worth the time and expense. Over ten years ago, I realized it was not worth doing...I worked 50+ hour weeks, made a good salary and loved shooting more than saving a few $$$ on alloy.

No one right answer for everyone

[lightman]

Good points Roger. I don't really know if we're doing them a disservice or not. I've always used wheelweights and I'm still finding them around here.

But I know there are about 15 States that have banned lead weights. The different type metals (print) are just as scarce. Isotope Cores make great bullets but are not common either.

I feel like we should still suggest that new casters should keep an eye out for these things. Maybe with a friendly word that this stuff is scarce. I don't know? I think one thing to suggest is that "networking" works. Getting others to look for you.

As far as posting about "Scores" goes, I enjoy reading about what members have found and their questions. I've posted about a few scores but I didn't do it to brag. I guess it could have been taken that way. I do it partly to show others that its still out there if you pay attention.

[Winger Ed.]

Scrounged Lead & wheel weights or buying it on the cheap is our generation.
Like us---- and four barrel carburetors, breaker points ignition, it's fading into history.

Maybe cheap Zinc wheel weights for casting is in the future for the younger folks.

[JohnH]

Scrounged Lead & wheel weights or buying it on the cheap is our generation.
Like us---- and four barrel carburetors, breaker points ignition, it's fading into history.

Maybe cheap Zinc wheel weights for casting is in the future for the younger folks.

A funny story about breaker points; Cousin was a mechanic at a motorcycle shop. Customer brought in a Benelli 50 for a tune up and the repair was given to the new guy fresh out of mechanics school. Of course the tune up list included replace points and condenser. fella wandered around the shop for a bit and the manager asked him what's up and he replied, "What's point's?"

It ain't just fading friend, it's gone at the level they don't even teach the technology anymore.

[samari46]

Even when I lived on Long Island NY, wheel weights weren't always free. But they were available at junkyards and pretty cheap. So would bring my buckets (at least 2) and look for the larger truck wheel weights. When I moved to Louisiana I brought my wheel weights with me. Down here you had to contend with the guys who bought them to make sinkers for sale. Used to pay about $25 a bucket. But did become an expert on mining the pistol berms at my gun club. Frank

[RogerDat]

One reason for the Score posts are to show pictures of what people find or relate how they came across this source and where. This is educational and I think has value. It is encouraging to people out there looking and informative as to what they might find and places to look. Not necessary to post every score. But some of that information is pretty useful.

I was at the scrap yard and scrap guy was pointing out there are a bunch of Lyman ingots in the bin that must be from a bullet caster I might want to get them. I would have had to push a bunch of linotype pigs out of the way to get the Lyman ingots. Experienced scrap guy, he knows linotype and mono type are desirable for casting but didn't realize those pigs were linotype for the simple reason they don't come into the yard often and it never crossed his mind to wonder what alloy the ingots with the hook hole on the end were. Now he knows, likewise posting pictures of the "score" here lets new casters know what some good stuff looks like. Pigs I have seen at least 3 styles in yards.

I just think strategy for folks getting started may need to change. Fellow was asking about what he could buy at rotometal that was close to WW's because from much of the information that seems like a required ingredient. What he really needed to know is what should I order from Rotometal to make bullets for this firearm. If I was getting started scrounging today I think I would want to learn all I could about premium stuff I might find in scap yard or other sources but probably focus on collecting good quality plain lead for the best price I could. then purchase the alloys to sweeten that plain lead from commercial source while looking for the opportunity to pick up some printers lead or solder or pewter by scrounging to gain more stash for less money. Without making acquiring that scrap an obstacle to casting.

It was that impression of a new caster asking "what is close to WW I can buy" that made me think, hey maybe more needs to be said about options that don't involve WW recipes. The goal is good casting alloy of sufficient hardness and sufficiently ductile to be appropriate to the bullet / cartridge being made. More than one way to achieve that which I think is worth mentioning.

Heck we have two scrap yards that were bought out by big waste management corporation and no longer sell to public. An ever more common situation. Same for tire stores, corporate owned don't sell WW's to the public, and they tend to drive the individual privately owned tire stores out of business. I'll take all the good lead I can afford from scrap yards where it is cheaper than foundry but expect if I live long enough I may well be buying some ingredients from foundries.

[Rickf1985]

Scrounged Lead & wheel weights or buying it on the cheap is our generation.
Like us---- and four barrel carburetors, breaker points ignition, it's fading into history.

Maybe cheap Zinc wheel weights for casting is in the future for the younger folks.

Or even us older folks. And I have a whole shelf full of four barrel carbs of all varieties. And two vehicles that still run points.

[gunther]

Not to drag this thread astray, but wouldn't a sticky on bullet traps be a good approach to this problem?

[jsizemore]

I guess the biggest reason to keep WW "alive" is folks walk right by them and don't realize how useful they are. I don't know about you, but I've never been too good to bend over and pick up a "stray" WW. That's free but for a little energy. Plus if you had to pick an alloy to cover about all casting requirements, a COWW is king. Why wouldn't you keep it "alive". Uncle buddy might have a bunch to get rid of or the tire shop has a bunch stashed around back that need to go. Sometimes for free, but learning how to reduce them to a usable alloy to cast with is the start to learning how to cast better bullets. How much is that worth?

[Winger Ed.]

. How much is that worth?

At this point in history-- quite a bit.

However; as Lead wheel weights go away, a lot of sheet and roofing Lead is being phased out for plastic,
solder is mostly 95/5, scrap yards won't sell retail, Zinc fishing sinkers are coming along, etc.,,,,,,,,, ahhh,,,, not so much.

Those of us that will still be around when Lead is gone, and won't adapt to the changing times--
We will be obsoleted out like the car mechanics in the mid 70s who refused to work on electronic ignition systems.

[kevin c]

Glen Fryxell touted the versatility of an 11 to 12 BHN alloy made from COWW, and I think most of us have read and recommend to new casters his “From Ingot to Target”. That may have helped get the less experienced into thinking that’s the optimal source of casting alloy.

It’s not just wheel weights that may be a snipe hunt: I recall a new caster, not being able any to scrounge on his own, asking here about what specific type of pewter to order from Rotometals, not understanding that tin at the right percentage in his alloy was his real goal.

I agree that times change, and that means the sources of casting metal may change as well. It does seem incumbent on the more experienced here to, not necessarily change with the times, but recognize that they have, and advise the fresh faces here with an eye looking forward, not back.

[RogerDat]

“From Ingot to Target”.

Still an excellent source of information on casting.

I agree with the idea that we need to make sure folks don't walk past a bonanza of WW or other good lead due to ignorance. While maybe encouraging them to realize the real goal is getting the right hardness in a lead alloy for the use intended.

Hate the thought of someone passing on 100 lbs. of soft sheet lead or cable sheathing because it isn't WW's without realizing that soft lead would allow them to buy a modest amount of premium lead to create a good alloy. Or spending all their money on soft lead and not realizing they need other alloys.

Myself I have been focused on buying premium scrap. I think long term plain lead will be least expensive option to purchase from a foundry. If I have to buy from foundry not having to purchase linotype or tin will save me more than buying plain lead. I'm still buying plain soft lead from a scrap bin when I see it for a good price.

I have found those iso containers a couple of times. Good alloy in all cases. Knew what I was seeing when it showed up in a scrap bin because of what I had read here. Nice part is it was in the "hard" lead bin with WW's which at that yard can be bought for less than the known soft lead. Snatched that up like it was a lost child.

[TyGuy]

Not to drag this thread astray, but wouldn't a sticky on bullet traps be a good approach to this problem?

This is certainly part of my solution. Besides squirreling away every lead wheel weight that comes into our shop (which is only a small percentage overall) and gathering up other sources of alloy, I have turned my attention to recycling as much of what I shoot as possible. My little home range has sand filled tires as a back stop and I get far too much enjoyment from mining it with a litter box scoop. I love when friends want to shoot at my place because I know I’ll dig up their bullets after they leave. It a beautiful cycle

[lightman]

A funny story about breaker points; Cousin was a mechanic at a motorcycle shop. Customer brought in a Benelli 50 for a tune up and the repair was given to the new guy fresh out of mechanics school. Of course the tune up list included replace points and condenser. fella wandered around the shop for a bit and the manager asked him what's up and he replied, "What's point's?"

It ain't just fading friend, it's gone at the level they don't even teach the technology anymore.

I guess I'm getting old! I still have a timing light and a dwell meter hanging on the board over my workbench. And a pair of brake spring pliers in my toolbox!