What would you ask a CCI employee?

[BunkTheory]

Question..... Why is homeland security buying primers? Last I heard, they weren't in the business of loading their own ammo. Sounds kinda fishy to me!

homeland security creates shortages and problems, just like when they started buying any removable magazine holding over ten rounds in it, a few weeks before all those lib states passed magazine capicity laws

[BunkTheory]

Yes LC provides military ammunition and each lot has a specific lot number that can track usage and when and where those lots were issued and expended. Every round is signed out via lot number and certified expended with the same lot number when it is expended. The military generally manufactures all the ammunition for their own usage. They do not sell to the civilian market. They do purchase from the civilian market when they can not met their own demand level.

Through the years I have shot a lot of IMI issued ammo. For the pistol marksmanship team the 38WC and the 45ACP SWC match was IMI, Federal and Winchester. For 22LR I have been issued Winchester White Box, Winchester T-22 in both rifle and pistol versions, Remington Target and various grades of Eley with Eley pistol on the low end and Eley TenX EPS on the high end and yes every box was tracked via lot number.

yet all of the bulk FEDERAL CARTRIDGE i have seen in .223 and .308 has come from the lake city arsenal that isnt even OWNED by the federal government....

[M-Tecs]

yet all of the bulk FEDERAL CARTRIDGE i have seen in .223 and .308 has come from the lake city arsenal that isnt even OWNED by the federal government....

Not correct. The Lake City Ammunition plant is U.S. government-owned but contractor-operated facility. Federal is owned by Vista and Vista is a spin off of ATK. ATK managed LC between April 1, 2002 until I Oct 20202 when Winchester took full control after winning the contract for the next 7 years.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/01/fed...#axzz7B2cDCM00

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/10/win...#axzz7B2cDCM00

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/how...#axzz7B2cDCM00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_C...munition_Plant

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/atk/

https://news.northropgrumman.com/new...age-of-service

Federal M193 or M855 is military usage only. Federal XM193 or XM855 is for the civilian market. Post Oct. 2020 you will start seeing Winchester LC headstamps

The paperwork and tracking is somewhat different. With the M193 and M855 the tracking documents require both issue and expenditure signatures and dates. With the XM193 and the XM885 lot tracking ends at the distributor same as other civilian ammo since it is civilian ammo. Not sure of the legal details of the cosharing space and equipment.

[Idaho45guy]

Talked to the former employee a little bit more last night. Asked her how many rounds they put out and she said they had five lines and the minimum was 45,000 rounds per hour for each one. Most run around 70,000 per hour, 24 hours per day, 7 days per week. She said they get multiple 5 million round orders every week. I must have really misunderstood her the first time.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/how...#axzz7B2cDCM00

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/how...#ixzz7B6YuoBTJ

How Much Ammunition is Produced for the United States Market?
Ammoland Inc. Posted on November 27, 2020 by Dean Weingarten

Image courtesy Dean Weingarten
U.S.A. –-(AmmoLand.com)- For the second time in a decade, demand for ammunition has outstripped supply in the United States. The first ammunition bubble was from 2012 to 2017. The next started in 2020.

Ammunition manufacturers have increased their capacity. In the face of increased demand, it has not been enough. Ammunition plants are running 24/7 to make profits while demand is high. Shortages still exist in the United States. Common calibers have disappeared from store shelves. Prices have risen. Panic buying and purchasing for private stockpiles have increased.

Those who purchased a stockpile in the interval between ammunition bubbles from 2017 to 2020 are considered wise and foresighted. At one point in October of 2018, .22 rimfire ammunition was available at 2.5 cents per round.

How much ammunition is being produced and purchased in the United States market?
During the .22 rimfire bubble, the productive capacity was increased from about 4 billion rimfire rounds to 5 billion rimfire rounds per year. The National Shooting Sports Foundation has estimated total ammunition produced for the United States market in 2017 at 8.1 billion rounds. In 2018, the total ammunition production for the United States was estimated at 8.7 billion rounds. The numbers for 2019 should be published in December of 2020.

A reasonable extrapolation puts the amount of ammunition produced for the United States market at somewhat over 9 billion rounds, of which 5 billion are rimfire and 4 billion are centerfire rifle, pistol, and shotgun rounds in 2020.

To put those numbers in perspective, the capacity of the U.S. military to produce small arms ammunition is 1.6 billion rounds per year. 99% of small arms ammunition for the military is produced at the Lake City ammunition plant in Independence, Missouri. From alu.army.mil:

Over 99 percent of all small-arms bullets (5.56-millimeter [mm], 7.62-mm and .50-caliber) consumed by the Army under its Title 10 responsibility to supply and equip its forces are manufactured at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant.

Lake City is the last of the World War II ammunition plants still in operation. All the rest have been shut down and decommissioned. In World War II, the U.S. produced 21.6 billion rounds of small arms ammunition per year. Most of the ammunition plants were shut down immediately after the war. During the Korean war, 4 plants were brought back into service. Now only the Lake City plant is operational. From jmc.army.mil:

After VJ day, all small caliber production plants except Lake City and Twin Cities were closed.Years later, the Korean Conflict would only require operation of six small caliber ammunition plants to meet wartime requirements. Five plants were utilized in the Vietnam War and amazingly today‟s production is able to meet requirements of 1.5 billion rounds per year by operating one facility, Lake City with Alliant Tech systems (ATK) as the current operating contractor. Modernization of production lines and new technologies has provided the abilities to meet this mission with a reduced infrastructure. Additional rounds are procured from General Dynamics and provided by NATO forces to meet total requirements. 48

Ammunition manufacturing capacity, for the United States market, is about 9 billion rounds per year. About 5 billion are rimfire, about 4 billion are centerfire.

Small arms ammunition capacity for the U.S. military is about 1.6 billion rounds per year. It is all centerfire ammunition.

[dverna]

Talked to the former employee a little bit more last night. Asked her how many rounds they put out and she said they had five lines and the minimum was 45,000 rounds per hour for each one. Most run around 70,000 per hour, 24 hours per day, 7 days per week. She said they get multiple 5 million round orders every week. I must have really misunderstood her the first time.

What is important is her report they are running full out. It was frustrating seeing posts accusing Federal of limiting production in some kind of conspiracy. Companies are driven by profit.

[David2011]

Can you imagine; as an employer - saying hey you fellas (gals) make match primers. Based on some random impression(s) between your interactions with those employees - do you feel that's a reasonable / objective way of making precision versus masses? Because as an employer - cannot possibly imagine making that distinction on any given day.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

You make it sound like it’s a random selection. I would expect that the line supervisor would know who’s the best.

[cwtebay]

You make it sound like it’s a random selection. I would expect that the line supervisor would know who’s the best.

Exactly.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

Yeah, and 9mm Rimmed was withdrawn from the market because it fit in the old 38 S&W revolvers. Probably the definition of a bad idea. So, if any are left I'm sure they are stashed somewhere.

I remember the 9mm Federal well. When we got samples of the ammo for testing but no gun yet to use it I went through the dregs in the gun vault and blew up a dozen .38 S&W top breaks of various makes and we sent them to Federal. The rest is history.

If you just happen to own a Ruger Service Six India Model .380 Rim, they work wonderfully in that other than shooting six inches low to the sights at 25 yards, the guns having been sighted for 178-grain .380 Mk2z. FMJ

[dverna]

I called the ex Federal employee an idiot based on what was originally reported by the OP. The OP has concluded he must have misunderstood what he was told.

Sources you may think are reliable may not be.

In this case the OP made an honest mistake. If I had not challenged it, we may have wallowed in ignorance. I was chastised by two members for using the word idiot but it fit....based on what was first reported.

Question everything....and use common sense. That is the lesson to be learned

[myg30]

M-Tecs, thank you for all the very informative info you have posted. It was a long over due education for me about who, how and where all the ammunition is made and going.
The links were most appreciated.

Mike

[TRX]

"Where de Berdan primers at?"

Urban legend says they make them for the export market, but don't sell them here.

[almar]

Question..... Why is homeland security buying primers? Last I heard, they weren't in the business of loading their own ammo. Sounds kinda fishy to me!

They ordered a million rounds, not just the primers.

[Kuduking]

I called the ex Federal employee an idiot based on what was originally reported by the OP. The OP has concluded he must have misunderstood what he was told.

Sources you may think are reliable may not be.

In this case the OP made an honest mistake. If I had not challenged it, we may have wallowed in ignorance. I was chastised by two members for using the word idiot but it fit....based on what was first reported.

Question everything....and use common sense. That is the lesson to be learned

Let's see here. Based on a second-hand account which lacked context, you determined that yet a third person - whom you have no personal knowledge of but worked 14 years at the very company which was topic matter - was an "idiot". And you further denigrated that person's intelligence and fitness for a job ("wont' last long"), again with no first-hand knowledge of the individual or the job.

Then you doubled-down on it.

Polite discourse. That is the lesson to be learned.

[Idaho45guy]

Let's see here. Based on a second-hand account which lacked context, you determined that yet a third person - whom you have no personal knowledge of but worked 14 years at the very company which was topic matter - was an "idiot". And you further denigrated that person's intelligence and fitness for a job ("wont' last long"), again with no first-hand knowledge of the individual or the job.

Then you doubled-down on it.

Polite discourse. That is the lesson to be learned.

Dverna is bi-polar like me. We can be super supportive and polite in one thread, then some random comment in another will set us off and we will hurl insults and denigrate others at the drop of a hat.

I'm aware of it and am really trying to not get triggered by the usual suspects and statements. My avatar is a reflection of that. I need to be more like Fozzie Bear who when insulted by the grouchy old men, just laughs it off and tells jokes.

[snowwolfe]

there is no actual difference between "standard", or "pistol". match or target denotions on the box are even less meaningful.

Best way to put it, going by the company sheets of Fiochi, CCI, and Aquila, pistol and standard velocity are the same thing.

With Eley, the fancier the name, technically means that the cartridges assembled in that lot data held a tighter grouping in their testing facility. And in many cases, there is a 5 to 10 dollar difference in price of a 50 round box of Eley 22lr based simply upon "this lot of assembled ammunition held a group size of 2 inches and 50 yards, while this other one held 2.5"

And how do you know this to be true?

[dverna]

Dverna is bi-polar like me. We can be super supportive and polite in one thread, then some random comment in another will set us off and we will hurl insults and denigrate others at the drop of a hat.

I'm aware of it and am really trying to not get triggered by the usual suspects and statements. My avatar is a reflection of that. I need to be more like Fozzie Bear who when insulted by the grouchy old men, just laughs it off and tells jokes.

You might be correct!!!

I have a low tolerance for foolish people. When someone says an order for 1 million rounds is significant, I know that is wrong based on my gut feel, and a 5 minute Google search will verify that. But many people will believe what is reported by an employee with 14 years at a company without thinking. Especially if it fits what they want to believe.



BTW kuduking, "polite discourse" is fine if we want to debate the merits of jacketed vs cast bullets, lube vs PC, or if the .270 is a better all round caliber than the .30/06 etc etc. Polite discourse is not how I handle those who lie, mislead or deceive. The Chief Engineer I worked for when I graduated told me, "Don, there are times you need to call a spade a ****ing shovel".