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Thread: Bullets still key holeing

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy catkiller45's Avatar
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    Bullets still key holeing

    Slugged the bore to times got .429 dia.. this is a Henry 44 mag. Bullets 200 to 240 grain. At 25 yards they keyhole. Commercial bullets. Hardness,not sure.. is it possible I am trying to push them to fast.. barrel twist of 20. Hornady xtp's shoot great..Thanks for any comments on this mystery to me..
    keep on rolling along.no matter what happens just keep rolling

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Ed_Shot's Avatar
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    What's the diameter of your commercial boolits?
    COME AND TAKE IT
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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    How fast are you pushing them? Load data may help.

    Make of bullets? Someone here may know their hardness.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Castaway's Avatar
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    Bet you’ve got one with micro-groove rifling. Look at the muzzle to confirm

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    They boolets are possibly a) undersize, b) moving too slow to stabilize c) barrel is leaded from previous undersize boolets therefore unable to stabilize d) damaged, inconsistent boolet bases , and a couple more l can't immediately recall. Good luck

  6. #6
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    Load 8 grs of Unique and test.. Bullet minimum diameter .430" the standard.

    Are the keyhole bullets plain base or Gas checked?

    Most likely, the bullets are to small in diameter and/or to soft and skidding.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Every time I have had key-holing bullets and shotgun patterns. Going with a large enough bullet has solved the problem.

    Two of those were 9mm theoretically .356 and key-holing stopped totally at .359.

    Pushing a bullet too hard can also aggravate the problem.

    So all my 9mm's shoot .38special cast boolits now. No more keyholes, no more shotgun patterns. Mostly those are shot with 3 grains of Red Dot.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

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  8. #8
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    Too little information here to offer any advice. What are your specifics?

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castaway View Post
    Bet you’ve got one with micro-groove rifling. Look at the muzzle to confirm
    What does one look for to make that determination?

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Castaway View Post
    Bet you’ve got one with micro-groove rifling. Look at the muzzle to confirm
    When did Henry use microgroove rifling? I thought that was strictly a Marlin innovation?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Castaway's Avatar
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    Not sure if the years Henry used microgroove rifling but the rifles pop up occasionally. To determine if you have one of the rifles, look at the muzzle and count the lands and grooves. Not sure of how many, but non microgroove will only have around 6 or less of each. As mentioned by 243winxb and GhostHawk, if that’s the case, a larger bullet is the answer. Microgroove barrels can shoot cast accurately, but bigger bullets are needed. Hard cast bullets are still lead and I’ve yet to see them work unless oversized. Powder coating still is soft and won’t help, although it would be interesting if someone could test two coats and see how that does.

  12. #12
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    Keyholing usually mean bullets are undersized.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by catkiller45 View Post
    Slugged the bore to times got .429 dia.. this is a Henry 44 mag. Bullets 200 to 240 grain. At 25 yards they keyhole. Commercial bullets. Hardness,not sure.. is it possible I am trying to push them to fast.. barrel twist of 20. Hornady xtp's shoot great..Thanks for any comments on this mystery to me..
    Must be a new Henry, as they just started the 1:20 twist thing in the last 2 years.
    Commerical bullets are typically hardcast (96-2-6) and are usually sized to .429
    The Henry should have a barrel groove dia of .431 per SAMMI specs.

    as Waksupi says "Keyholing usually mean bullets are undersized."
    More to that, Hardcast undersized bullets even more so! ...as a softer alloy is likely to obturate and solve that problem.

    I realize you said you slugged your bore and got .429"
    Are you "SURE" of your technique?
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Posted this before, but it still startles me. All 44 Specials: first target with store bought HSM Cowboy loads with 240 grain SWC's (note the prefect keyhole in the upper right, and the size of the group in general) and followed up with Speer .430" 240 grain swaged SWC's on 6.8 grains of Unique, and second target with Oregon Trail .431" 240 grain SWC's on top of 6.5 grains of Unique. All shot with the Henry Big Boy 44Special/44 Magnum.

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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Pull a bullet with an inertia puller and measure it to see if the brass swaged it down. It may no longer be the diameter you think it is which could cause your problem.

  16. #16
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Caster View Post
    Pull a bullet with an inertia puller and measure it to see if the brass swaged it down. It may no longer be the diameter you think it is which could cause your problem.
    Good point, I've had a couple guns I had to seat and crimp in separate steps.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJames View Post
    Posted this before, but it still startles me. All 44 Specials: first target with store bought HSM Cowboy loads with 240 grain SWC's (note the prefect keyhole in the upper right, and the size of the group in general) and followed up with Speer .430" 240 grain swaged SWC's on 6.8 grains of Unique, and second target with Oregon Trail .431" 240 grain SWC's on top of 6.5 grains of Unique. All shot with the Henry Big Boy 44Special/44 Magnum.
    So Joe, looks like second target has a group of 3 at .9 inches - correct?
    I am fighting similar problems with my big boy - cant get 240/430 keith bullets to perform. Back to my old standby, which is 200 rnfp, .431 diameter, 15 gr AA#7.

    TNX Dave

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by TjB101 View Post
    What does one look for to make that determination?
    Typically a cut rifled barrel will have 4 , 5 or 6 equally spaced lands and grooves . (WWII 1903-A3 barrels were made with two grooves and two lands ... for speedy wartime production ) but 4 , 5 and 6 are common and easy to see ... Usual is 4 or 6 ... 5 is odd but not unheard of.
    The 44 cal. Micro-Groove barrel has 12 small grooves .062" wide and 12 small lands and is very easy to see when looking at the crown (muzzel) and it seems the bore might be groove dia .4315" with bore dia 4230" at one point in time ... 1960 something , Lord only knows what's used today .... I didn't even know Henry used Microgroove rifling !
    Gary
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  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
    Typically a cut rifled barrel will have 4 , 5 or 6 equally spaced lands and grooves . (WWII 1903-A3 barrels were made with two grooves and two lands ... for speedy wartime production ) but 4 , 5 and 6 are common and easy to see ... Usual is 4 or 6 ... 5 is odd but not unheard of.
    The 44 cal. Micro-Groove barrel has 12 small grooves .062" wide and 12 small lands and is very easy to see when looking at the crown (muzzel) and it seems the bore might be groove dia .4315" with bore dia 4230" at one point in time ... 1960 something , Lord only knows what's used today .... I didn't even know Henry used Microgroove rifling !
    Gary
    Good to know … thanks for the follow up

    Tim

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    Apologies if this has been mentioned- if, by chance, you are using a Lee factory crimp die, it will squeeze 'em down.

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