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Thread: Over book pressure but no signs

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCB View Post
    556/ 223 are different . nato round and commercial.
    Both the terms 223 and 556 refer to the caliber of the rifle. The 556 started off as a military cartridge in 1950 and was technically called 556x45mm NATO. However, by the 1960s, Remington decided to release a much similar cartridge, the 223.
    the primary issue that comes with these differences is that when firing a 556 NATO cartridge in a rifle chambered for 223 Rem. Due to a more extended throat of the NATO chamber, this combination will cause a 223 chambered weapon to run at 10,000 psi higher than its usual 55,000 psi. This is not safe as this can result in harming the operator or even rifle.
    and So came the Wylde chamber.
    I would check the calibration on my scale and tread lightly as mentioned above.
    Good post and why my AR's are Wyldes
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  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I never have gone over listed loadings
    every rifle has different parameters in loading
    unless you are trying to see what yours will take there is no need
    to go over book loadings as they have very expensive pressure testing equipment
    so you do not blow your gun up
    go to Kentucky Ballistics and watch what happens when he shoots a
    50 BMG with old over charged ammo

    here ya go
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1449...uckyBallistics,
    Last edited by white eagle; 10-21-2021 at 09:40 AM.
    Hit em'hard
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by white eagle View Post
    I never have gone over listed loadings
    every rifle has different parameters in loading
    unless you are trying to see what yours will take there is no need
    to go over book loadings as they have very expensive pressure testing equipment
    so you do not blow your gun up
    go to Kentucky Ballistics and watch what happens when he shoots a
    50 BMG with old over charged ammo

    here ya go
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1449...uckyBallistics,
    Well that was due to him shooting a SLAP sabot round out of a gun with a muzzle break. Basically made a barrel obstruction
    A wise man will try to learn as much from a fool as he will from a master, for all have something to teach- Uncle Iroh
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  4. #24
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjim View Post
    I am seeing several powders good in a 223 available both on line and Local gun store.
    Check around, you may get lucky.
    Gotta link ? Been trying for close to eight months to find Varget and 8208 or other temp stable powders but no luck
    A wise man will try to learn as much from a fool as he will from a master, for all have something to teach- Uncle Iroh
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  5. #25
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    Over pressure(?) for what?

    Your AR is made and chambered for the 5.56 NATO cartridge (yes, some ARs are marked 223 Rem but that is/was simply the commercial designation for the cartridge). When SAAMI adopted the 223 Remington cartridge the MAP was set at 55,000 psi (transducer). Having measured the pressure of several commercial factory 223 cartridges that is what they adhere to. Also, even though SAAMI is a volunteer organization with not all manufacturers belonging, with the advent of SAAMI standards becoming the defacto (because of numerous court cases) "standard" almost all data in the latest manuals adhere to SAAMI standards.

    The military does not load any cartridge to SAAMI standards. The U.S. military arsenals [and the commercial firms who load milspec ammunition] load to their own established standards including pressure standards. The current U.S. pressure standard for 5.56 M193 and M855 is 62,300 psi [measured in front of the case mouth which will give a slightly lower pressure than over the chamber as with SAAMI measurements]. Most lots of older M193 (U.S. 5.56 loaded with a 55 gr FMJBT) I have pressure tested run 56 - 59,000 psi as measured in a tight commercial "223 Remington" chamber. With the adoption of the M855 cartridge with its 62 gr FMJBT bullet pressures were increased to 62,300 psi. Such ammunition tested in the same commercial "223 Remington" chambered barrel run 62 - 64,000 psi.

    The reason 5.56 can run upwards of 10,000 psi in "223 Remington" chambers is because it is loaded to "upwards of 10,000 psi" more than 223 Remington cartridges.

    The Wilde chamber is simply a match chamber with a throat/leade to fit M855 ammunition. Its design had nothing to do with pressure reduction.

    The above is based on actual facts and pressure measurements, not hypothetical fantasies. There is so much myth and misinformation on the internet.

    The OPs loads are not "over pressure".
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  6. #26
    Boolit Master ACC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdog91 View Post
    So worked up a load for my 5.56. According to the book I should be over pressure but none of the 15 odd prices of lake city brass I have show any pressure signs I can tell. No split necks ,no popped primers ,no gas seepage around the primers ,can't even see an extractor mark. Why would this be ?
    You are tickling the dragon's tail here. Pressure can also be effected by the ambient temperature. I have loaded my share of .222, 223, and 22-250. Be careful.

    ACC

  7. #27
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    You might be hitting a node right at that velocity in your gun. But tuning a load to barrel harmonic stuff is another subject all together.

    I would go down and see if the groups open up then start to close again.

    If you continue using this load, I would probably ask someone to run a quick load for you to calculate actual pressure. And maybe adjust seating depth to reduce pressure in addition to only using good conditions lc brass for it. As it has the largest capacity I'm aware of.

    Also keep good records of your brass
    When I load my revolver HOT, i only use new to once fired brass then that lot of brass gets turned into plinking load cases. 5 firings total. After 2 hot shots and 3 regulars most of the time that lot of brass is No good.

    When i load normal book loads still stiff but not hot i can get 20-30 shots off a piece of brass.



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  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master
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    play with fire long enough
    and you get burned
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  9. #29
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    If you are shooting lead with jacketed info, the pressures are less with lead. You don't need to go balls to the wall. Find your accurate load, and use it.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy DCB's Avatar
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    This is what the internet is going by...
    From Wikipedia,
    A .223 Wylde chamber is a hybrid rifle chamber designed to allow .22 caliber barrels to safely fire both .223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition. While the cartridge dimensions of both rounds are the same, 5.56 NATO loads produce pressures in excess of the .223 safe spec. The 5.56 chamber has angular differences that allow higher pressures safely. .223 can be fired from a 5.56 chamber safely but with reduced accuracy. The Wylde is a hybrid chamber designed to allow both ammunition types to be safely fired with good accuracy.

  11. #31
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    Wolfdog
    As mentioned by many members pressures in a firearm are controlled by many things. Case to chamber fit, bullet seated to contact rifling, mixed manufactured brass.

    Back in my younger days on my quest for "red mist" on ground hogs I started pushing Speers 52 gr HP's as fast as I could get them from a 22-250 Remington varminter. I was way over book max load and only stopped because the accuracy dropped off. I had no signs of pressure issues. One day while out in the field my buddy ran out of ammo and wanted to try one of mine. He shot at a ground hog on a large mound of dirt while I spotted. He fired and the ground hog just sat there. He asked where the bullet strike was and I told him must have went high I didn't see a splash. Hand him another round he aimed lower. Ground hog took back to the hole but I didn't think he was hit. I gave him one more round and told him to just shoot center of the dirt mound. I laid just behind him and when he fired all I saw was a huge orange mist fly out the muzzle. This time the case was hard to extract. When we got it out and check the cases over all of them had the primes flattened so hard the you could see all the machine work on the bolt face in the primers.
    Unless you are a speed junkie I would work my loads up for accuracy versus velocity.

    Be safe and have fun
    Mike

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCB View Post
    This is what the internet is going by...
    From Wikipedia,
    A .223 Wylde chamber is a hybrid rifle chamber designed to allow .22 caliber barrels to safely fire both .223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition. While the cartridge dimensions of both rounds are the same, 5.56 NATO loads produce pressures in excess of the .223 safe spec. The 5.56 chamber has angular differences that allow higher pressures safely. .223 can be fired from a 5.56 chamber safely but with reduced accuracy. The Wylde is a hybrid chamber designed to allow both ammunition types to be safely fired with good accuracy.
    Essentially what I said regards to pressure. Nothing there stipulates either round is "over pressure" only that 5.56 pressures exceed SAAMI pressure specifications for the 223 Rem. What Wiki doesn't say is any chamber in and 223 Rem rifle with a 10" or faster twist will have a throat for the heavier bullets. Thus shooting 5.56 out of them will not "increase pressure". Only in some 223 Remington with 12 or 14" twists will you find the shorter older SAAMI spec throat. However, with those one shouldn't be shooting the heavier jacketed bullets anyway as they won't stabilize.

    Wolfdog93s loads while too fast for cast bullet accuracy in that twist barrel are still not over pressure for his 7" twist AR.

    As to "223 can be fired from a 5.56 chamber safely but with reduced accuracy" I also strongly disagree as Federal match 223 Remington along with numerous other 52 - 55 gr jacketed factory 223 Rem loads are extremely accurate in 5.56 chambers as are quality reloads using quality bullets.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdog91 View Post
    So worked up a load for my 5.56. According to the book I should be over pressure but none of the 15 odd prices of lake city brass I have show any pressure signs I can tell. No split necks ,no popped primers ,no gas seepage around the primers ,can't even see an extractor mark. Why would this be ?
    Why are you working up to these higher pressures? Have you started low and are working up to get better groupings? I’m sure many here experiment over published max loads, but they hopefully have had experience and a good handle on what they are doing and of course paying close attention to all signs. The SAMMI pressures are there to keep people safe. They are most like likely way below where problems may start to happen. If you want to venture into this no-mans land, your risk goes up. It’s not fore everyone. Know exactly what you are doing. Try lower amounts of powder and keep going down. You may find another sweet spot in the barrel harmonics. Stay safe!

  14. #34
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Again yes I stared low and just yet working up till my groups where looking the way I wanted
    A wise man will try to learn as much from a fool as he will from a master, for all have something to teach- Uncle Iroh
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  15. #35
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Over pressure(?) for what?

    Your AR is made and chambered for the 5.56 NATO cartridge (yes, some ARs are marked 223 Rem but that is/was simply the commercial designation for the cartridge). When SAAMI adopted the 223 Remington cartridge the MAP was set at 55,000 psi (transducer). Having measured the pressure of several commercial factory 223 cartridges that is what they adhere to. Also, even though SAAMI is a volunteer organization with not all manufacturers belonging, with the advent of SAAMI standards becoming the defacto (because of numerous court cases) "standard" almost all data in the latest manuals adhere to SAAMI standards.

    The military does not load any cartridge to SAAMI standards. The U.S. military arsenals [and the commercial firms who load milspec ammunition] load to their own established standards including pressure standards. The current U.S. pressure standard for 5.56 M193 and M855 is 62,300 psi [measured in front of the case mouth which will give a slightly lower pressure than over the chamber as with SAAMI measurements]. Most lots of older M193 (U.S. 5.56 loaded with a 55 gr FMJBT) I have pressure tested run 56 - 59,000 psi as measured in a tight commercial "223 Remington" chamber. With the adoption of the M855 cartridge with its 62 gr FMJBT bullet pressures were increased to 62,300 psi. Such ammunition tested in the same commercial "223 Remington" chambered barrel run 62 - 64,000 psi.

    The reason 5.56 can run upwards of 10,000 psi in "223 Remington" chambers is because it is loaded to "upwards of 10,000 psi" more than 223 Remington cartridges.

    The Wilde chamber is simply a match chamber with a throat/leade to fit M855 ammunition. Its design had nothing to do with pressure reduction.

    The above is based on actual facts and pressure measurements, not hypothetical fantasies. There is so much myth and misinformation on the internet.

    The OPs loads are not "over pressure".
    Thank you ,you also confirmed something I was wondering. Makes me really happy I picked a 5.56 over a .223 chamber
    A wise man will try to learn as much from a fool as he will from a master, for all have something to teach- Uncle Iroh
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  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    I would suspect because they're safe in your chamber. But without knowing more, nobody can answer your question.

    I can say that "book max" in my 30 year old reloading manuals is far less than "book max" now for the same powder and bullet.

  17. #37
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    For the 223 / 5.56 (and a number of other calibers), I use WC-844. This is the milsurp equivalent to H-335 and it has probably sent more 0.224" projectiles down range than any other powder.

    Yes I know WC-844 is not one of the fancy new temp stable powders, but it really does work pretty good.

    I noted Fed Arm has some back in stock for $208 per 16 lbs + $38 (S&H + Hazmat). This works out to $15.38 a lb.

    https://fedarm.com/product/wc-844-po...fle-like-h335/

    And although 16 lbs may sound like a lot, it really not a bad thing to have a good size batch so that you will get plenty of ammo without worrying about lot to lot changes. I think my last order of WC-844 was actually 32 lbs.
    Last edited by P Flados; 10-22-2021 at 12:58 AM.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    For the 223 / 5.56 (and a number of other calibers), I use WC-844. This is the milsurp equivalent to H-335 and it has probably sent more 0.224" projectiles down range than any other powder.

    Yes I know WC-844 is not one of the fancy new temp stable powders, but it really does work pretty good.

    I noted Fed Arm has some back in stock for $208 per 16 lbs + $38 (S&H + Hazmat). This works out to $15.38 a lb.

    https://fedarm.com/product/wc-844-po...fle-like-h335/

    And although 16 lbs may sound like a lot, it really not a bad thing to have a good size batch so that you will get plenty of ammo without worrying about lot to lot changes. I think my last order of WC-844 was actually 32 lbs.
    Ugh if I didn't have a car note I'd be all over this , been wanting to try milsurp powder for a while now but all I had found was something for a 20mm vulcan's rounds
    A wise man will try to learn as much from a fool as he will from a master, for all have something to teach- Uncle Iroh
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  19. #39
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    This is just a thought on "over book" charges.

    I started serious shooting and reloading in a good gun club in mid '65; members ranged from late teen noobs to highly experienced men well over 65. A newish wannabe hotshot once asked our most knowlegable reloader (a tip of the hat to Vern Rome) how he could find the absolute maximum load for his newly received NRA/DCM 1903-A3 in .30-06. The soft spoken old guy looked away, thought a moment and said, "The only way you can ever really know the maximum charge for any rifle is to start 20% below book max and add a quarter grain at a time until she blows; then back off a half grain." There's a lot of reloading wisdom hidden in that.

  20. #40
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    my go to 06 load pushes a 150 to 2900 fps and is a good 3 grains over max. Some calibers are just underloaded. I took one of my 06s out with the chrono one day shooting 150s with top book loads with 4350 and re19 and was getting just over 2600 fps. Less performance then i get with a 308. Some other examples are the 257 roberts, 250 savage, 757 857 and 300 H&H. Im sure theres more but those ones ive actualy found it myself.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check