Over book pressure but no signs

[Wolfdog91]

So worked up a load for my 5.56. According to the book I should be over pressure but none of the 15 odd prices of lake city brass I have show any pressure signs I can tell. No split necks ,no popped primers ,no gas seepage around the primers ,can't even see an extractor mark. Why would this be ?

[johnsonian09]

What Boolit? Coal? What powder?

Edit:also what manual are you using?

For example lyman tests everything with extremely tight chamber tolerances in a test reciever/barrel. Which results in higher pressures at smaller loads

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[Wolfdog91]

What Boolit? Coal? What powder?

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H322 , ( I'm trying to make a replacement load I'm near about out of the powder I usually use and it's kinda hard finding anything else, also I don't have a big stock pile like most ) Hornady 75gr hpbt ( yes 1:7 twist barrel) and I forgot my cbto I'll have to check my notes when I get home but I'm a hair over mag length but I'm still off my hard jam a good bit. Still powder movement to when I shaken em so I'm not compressed it seems

[johnsonian09]

Are u using hornandys manual? It's fairly conservative also, compared to lee or sierra.

Also lake city brass has more case capacity then say pmp or lapua. Which can increase pressure by as much as 5k just switching brass.

They write the books to the lowest common denominator to keep people safe.


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[M-Tecs]

Necks don't split from overpressure. Overpressure is also a SAAMI standard and nothing more in SOME platforms. Flattened or primers blanking are an indicator of possible over pressure. Gas seepage around the primers normally doesn't happen until the primer pocket has loosened. For my Palma loads max pressue is determined by how many loadings I can get before the primer pocket loosens.

You will not see extractor marks due to pressure. If the bolt has a spring plunger ejector you may see marks from pressure.

[dverna]

In over 50 years of reloading, I have never loaded over book maximum. IMO, the gain in velocity is not worth the risks. Give that some consideration as you develop loads. There is a risk/reward evaluation to weigh.

Some powders are temperature sensitive so a load that may look safe at 40* will run at higher pressure at 90*.

[johnsonian09]

Is there a reason you're trying unpublished loads? Are you chronographing your shots?

There's probably no need to go over the bookloads. I use h335 and a 70 grain bullet. It goes a hair under 3000fps. That's plenty of energy for anything the .223 or 5.56 is suitable for killing.

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[reloader28]

Every gun is different and the books are a good guide line.
I have some guns maxed out at about book maxes and some that are way beyond. I have a 338-06 that runs as good and better than 338 win mag. You just have to pay attention to what your doing

[Winger Ed.]

I'd go easy with that for a few reasons.

Maybe the most important is when you try to make a .220 Swift out of a .223/5.56---
it can get real exciting when a receiver lets go.

[reddog81]

Lots of good advice already given. Like mentioned, some books are more conservative than others. Just because you’re past the max load doesn’t necessarily mean you’re over pressure. Using different components can result in higher or lower pressure than what the tester recording the data in the book got.

Additionally you don’t always see pressure signs once you go past the SAAMI max. I always laugh to myself when some says to watch for pressure signs in a cartridge like .38 Special or .45 ACP. If you see pressure signs in either of those rounds it’s because you’re well past double the SAAMI limit.

[megasupermagnum]

I've had more than one rifle, and even handgun shoot their best at "over book" loads. You bet if accuracy keeps getting better, I'm going to keep adding powder, at least up to a point. This depends on the application of course. If you are shooting these from a semi auto rifle, I might be cautious of very strong loads simply for wear and tear on the rifle.

To answer your question, brass and primers are not built to fail right at SAMMI maximum pressures. How could they when every cartridge has it's own pressure maximum? Just because you are not seeing signs of dangerous pressure, does not mean you are not above the 55,000 psi or so that the load data is maxed out at. You could be at 60,000 psi, 65,000 psi, and not show any signs at all. From what I've seen, somewhere in that 70,000 psi range is where you start to see brass pressure signs of extractor groves, or other extrusions, but I'm pretty sure this is unique to each cartridge as well, and probably related to bolt thrust. Each primer had different characteristics. I shoot a lot more handgun than rifle. In a small pistol primer, a Federal 100 will start flattening early, sometimes around 35,000-40,000 psi. The same exact load with a CCI 500 won't show the slightest bit of flattening, and you can go way up before you see flattening with that primer. Along with that, you can take the same exact load, and shoot it in two different handguns, and each will have a different looking primer. At one point I had two SP101's in 327 federal, and with factory ammo one the primer would look brand new except for the firing pin dent, and the other the primer looked flat as a pancake. In that case, it was a matter of headspace. Rifles are bound to have more strict tolerance on headspace, but it is still a factor.

So you can absolutely be above SAMMI pressure without any pressure signs at all. That said, if book max is 22 grains, and 22.5 grains shoots better, and there's no pressure signs, I'd shoot them myself. If it did not shoot better, no way I'd do it for the speed alone.

[Wolfdog91]

Is there a reason you're trying unpublished loads? Are you chronographing your shots?

There's probably no need to go over the bookloads. I use h335 and a 70 grain bullet. It goes a hair under 3000fps. That's plenty of energy for anything the .223 or 5.56 is suitable for killing.

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Powder availability. Usually use what's in the book but good luck trying to find anything right now. Had a good load made up with 8208 but I have like mabye 30rd worth of powder left. Both this h322 like three years ago and never touched it. Saw people used it for .223 and said why not. Stared from 21 grains I think which is what everyone whose tried I read did and worked my way up from there chronographing every thing checking brass ect. Didn't really get the accuracy I wanted though till I went and pushed the envelope. Next thing you know my Lil 16" budget gun is clover leafing @100yd well the three I didn't pull lol ,and it's giving me really good velocity. But I confused me because again wasn't getting any pressure signs like I did with other guns like my Grendel

[Wayne Smith]

Every chamber/barrel combination is different, perhaps microscopally, but different. When you have a chamber/barrel combination that is pushing the standard for large you will get away with more than one that is tight. When you are at this point chrono your loads because there is a direct relationship between pressure and velocity. As long as you are getting the accuracy you want within normative velocity readings you are golden.

[farmerjim]

I am seeing several powders good in a 223 available both on line and Local gun store.
Check around, you may get lucky.

[country gent]

Visual indicators for pressure are sublet to the viewer. they give an idea but by the time you reach that point you are over the pressure limits. primer cups can vary in hardness and strength, again cases vary some maker to maker and batch to batch. sizing dies vary some also. Then the chamber in your rifle may be slightly larger the throat longer ans the leade angle different bore and groove dias also can vary. there are many things that can alter pressure.

Measuring case head at the solid portion just in front of the groove gives an idea of pressure. measure a few factory loads to get the number then your reloads. an increase of the expansion by .0003-.0004 is pushing it.

I understand what and why you are working with this powder. Manuals give the makers best recommendations for a cartridge not all the possibles. 322 may be on the slow side for the 223 and bullet combination. With out book data and published pressures working from other reloaders notes you are in the dark.

[243winxb]

May take up to 5 firings, till the primer pockets get loose. If you make it past 5, pressure should be ok.

[Tripplebeards]

My 4, 243’s all have their BEST accuracy “clover leafing” above book max “suggested” loads with no pressure sign. They are loaded anywhere from .2 to .5 grains over. My bolt guns have clovered to .3” groups at 200 yards with the loads. Most of the powder companies have told me in the past their load data’s are pretty conservative and keep load data 15/20% under max. I do load over max length so there is more room with less pressures. I DO start with minimum suggested load data and work my way up. You just have to watch for casing pressure and signs…but sometimes that’s not always the case. If you go to some of my first posts here I had a Ruger American 450BM I “rattled” it apart from running cast boolits all the way to 460 S&W max loads. The EXACT same action is used in their 300 WSM rated at 60,000 psi. My loads never showed any signs of casing pressures all the way up to max 460 S&W loads but the accuracy was not there. My best accuracy was shooting MOA at 2,200 FPS with a lee 300 grain. The problem was even though I had ZERO casing pressure the gun itself couldn’t handle it. The ejector failed, the magazine kept falling out, the picatinny rail kept loosening up and I wrecked my scope in the process and almost a second till I stopped blaming the rings and looked deeper into the issue. Lastly the bolt stop holes hogged out in the receiver. Ruger was AWESOME and replaced the gun. I’m sure they would not have if they new I pushed it as hard as I did. I upgraded to a gunsite scout which is still sitting NIB. It won’t feed cast just like the American so I haven’t shot it yet. I learned my lesson needless to say on over pressure loads. So even if your load shows no signs of pressure it doesn’t mean your firearm can take the beating. IMO loading A hair over max with no signs of pressure isn’t going to be hard on your firearm isn’t going to hurt anything but pushing like I did with the American 450BM…YES. I learned my lesson. It was an experiment and my first go with cast boolits. In the past I have ALWAYS loaded for best accuracy and not velocity and will continue to do so. I would rather find a load that stacks them all in the same hole. That way I know I’m not going to miss and just have to figure out my drops.

[contender1]

I have a gun I use when I'm teaching handloading that I use as a visual for my students.

It's a blown up Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag.

The books are there for many reasons. The companies use their components, their equipment to test things like velocity & pressure. They work things up using either real guns or test barrels. And they keep stuff within the guidelines of SAAMI specs.
Each company is different.
Every mixing of components are different.
Every gun built is different.
SAAMI specs take into consideration all types of firearms.

A firearm is a mechanical machine. So is a drag racing car. It may run great 10, 15, 20 times etc. Then,, suddenly,, it explodes. The continued use of force upon a mechanical machine may not have a problem at first,, but over time,, it can have an adverse affect.

Elmer Keith,, the grandfather of the .44 Mag,,, did a lot of experimenting with all kinds of calibers, guns & loadings. AND,, he blew up several guns doing so.

There are so many variables in handloading,, that it's hard to know what kinds of pressures you are getting unless you have a pressure strain gauge on your gun. And,, what may be fine in your gun,, may not be fine in another gun. Visual signs you seek may NEVER expose themselves. Yet,, you can build over pressure loads & over stress your firearm.

And yes,, many, many people do load "over book info" to get performance they seek for whatever reasons. The lack of a specific powder, the so-so accuracy,,, the desire to increase velocity,, etc. all have been reasons,, or as I teach,, excuses,, to exceed book info.

AND,, not all over book info is bad for a gun a person may have. As mentioned,, SAMMI specs do reflect a wide spectrum of firearms. And yes,, sometimes,, over book info can be perfectly fine,, in your gun. Just not always in every gun.

When I teach handloading,, I always recommend a minimum of (3) different handloading manuals as a starting point for handloaders. And I strongly suggest they read all 3, and look at the components they are planning on using. I then advise them to try & match the components used to the manual that matches things they have. Next,, I advise them to start low & slowly work up, & not to exceed the book. And then,,, if what they have tried doesn't work as needed,, to take the other books & cross reference information to see if there are any ways they may modify their loads to get better results. We all know that different manuals have different "max" loads listed. But it's the little things that make these different max loads stop where they do. Primers, bullets, seating depth, brass, etc.

To try & answer your question of why you aren't seeing any signs of over pressure isn't simple. Too many variables.

Personally,, I'd advise to not exceed book info,, and start a serious search for the powder you normally use. Or,, start over with different powders, bullet, & primer combos to find the results you seek all while staying within the book info.

I often have started with a firearm,, and handloads,, seeking the best performance,, to where I've experimented with well over 40 different loadings,,,OFTEN,, and even over 80 loads in a few. And while we are all seeing a shortage of components,, it's harder to do that,, it's even harder if you have an issue & get injured or even worse. Safety first.
We all want all gun owners to be safe,, and this includes handloaders.

[DCB]

556/ 223 are different . nato round and commercial.
Both the terms 223 and 556 refer to the caliber of the rifle. The 556 started off as a military cartridge in 1950 and was technically called 556x45mm NATO. However, by the 1960s, Remington decided to release a much similar cartridge, the 223.
the primary issue that comes with these differences is that when firing a 556 NATO cartridge in a rifle chambered for 223 Rem. Due to a more extended throat of the NATO chamber, this combination will cause a 223 chambered weapon to run at 10,000 psi higher than its usual 55,000 psi. This is not safe as this can result in harming the operator or even rifle.
and So came the Wylde chamber.
I would check the calibration on my scale and tread lightly as mentioned above.

[jonp]

Blowing up a Super Blackhawk is a feat I'd not want to replicate seing as to how they are built.
I have a Judge sitting over my bench i wrote a thread about as a reminder to be extra careful and also to never buy another of those things