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Thread: Rifle brass composition changes...

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Rifle brass composition changes...

    I was talking with some "older" (I'm 62) gentlemen at the last local gunshow... they mentioned that in the late 1960's - early 1970's that they noticed a change in Winchester / Western brass. The new formula brass could only be reloaded 5-6 times before failure... previously they had gotten 12-15. Has anyone else ever heard of this before? Is it the brass or possibly the result of powder changes? I reload, but not one box at a time, which is what these guys were talking about.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    Use bushing dies to save working the necks. My Winchester brand brass, in 243 Win has over 20 loadings on it. I am 76 & call BS on it.

    My new 6.5 CM chamber & die match each other very closely. Very little working of the body using a bushing die. May last forever. Hornady brass.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I have some old Rem-Umc cases that are more copper colored, so alloys probably have changed at times. I would think reduced case life is a result of poor or no annealing, or exposure to ammonia, or just plain old overworking the brass.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Change from 60:40 Zn-Cu- to 70:30 Zn-Cu during WW2 to conserve copper. FA and LC Match ammo continued using Red brass until 1964, everything 1965 and later was yellow brass. Some Euro commercial Norma, Lapua, Sako continued red brass into the 1970s for rifle ammo.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    The amount of annealing makes the difference when cartridge brass is being formed. Win/Nato 5.56 ammo was having case head separation in another countrys rifle. No problems in our M16A1. One more anneal solved the problem. When the neck & shoulder are heated, the case body area gets stress relieved at 400F degrees.

    Cartridge Brass-
    Material is 70 copper/30 zinc with trace amounts of lead & iron , called C26000. Material starts to yield at 15,000 PSI when soft (annealed), and 63,000 PSI when hard.
    Material yields, but continues to get stronger up to 47,000 PSI when soft, and 76,000 PSI
    Last edited by 243winxb; 10-23-2021 at 02:56 PM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I’ve heard a lot of BS at the gun shows and in the old gun shops I’ve got Brass from all manufacturers and I’ve get plenty of reloads almost all of it especially if you know what you’re doing when it comes to reloading a lot of people don’t and they screw up the brass.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master 1006's Avatar
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    I have some 30.06 mixed head stamp, mil-surp brass from the 1940’s that seems more durable than the newer stuff. They are heavier than current commercial brass.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I have some of the older Norma brass in 7.65x53 Argentine mauser and is more copper colored. And my Lake City 63 M72 30-06 is more reddish as well. The Lake City m72 I shoot in a Sako model 75. Will be trying it in a 1966 Winchester model 70 match rifle soon as they open the local sheriff's range. All the local ranges are closed due to covid and with the omicron variant don't forsee them opening for quite sometime. Frank

  9. #9
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    I have some W-W .30-30 that goes back to 1971, from 3 boxes of once-fired factory ammo. My Dad gave it to Me when I started My own reloading setup. Same with some Norma .270Win brass.
    Loaded the .30-30 at least 10X, no problems. But then I Partial-Size about everything that goes into a rifle.
    The longevity of brass depends on how it is sized and how hot the loads are.
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  10. #10
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    +1 on the Norma brass in 7.65x53 Mauser. It's very good stuff.

  11. #11
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    I have some W-W and Remington 45/70 brass I’ve been reloading for 48 years if that proves anything.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The benchrest shooters are the pros here. They will buy 200 cases sort for the 20 identical cases neck turn and prep them. then use these 20 cases to wear out the barrel.

  13. #13
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    I purchased a m 70 .375 H & H in ‘72 and started reloading for it soon thereafter. The gunsmith I visited had a box of Norma unprimed brass which he sold me somewhat hesitantly, saying it would be fine with lighter loads. I loaded up the Norma brass with the same load I had been using in the W - W factory ammunition brass. Things seemed fine until I went to seat primers in the once fired Norma brass; as the primer pockets on some of the cases would not retain a new primer. I realized the gunsmith knew something about the Norma brass that I (an ignorant 19 year old) did not. The load was not excessive in the Winchester brass; in fact, I still have some of that first box of factory
    300 grain silver tip brass. I never knew why the brass was soft; either incorrectly alloyed or incorrectly annealed or what…. I still have several pieces of the Norma brass which was not stretched beyond usefulness, but it is only used in very light cast bullet loads. Obviously, Norma makes fine cartridge brass, but something went wrong somewhere on the brass I purchased .
    Last edited by wmitty; 01-09-2022 at 11:11 PM.
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  14. #14
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    When I was young, I could usually call the headstamp on brass laying on the ground just from the color of it. As time went by, I found some cases where the color did not match the headstamp. Where the color did not match the headstamp I also found other differences such as size of the print on the headstamp, deepness of the print on the headstamp, and case wall thickness/weight.
    I concluded the American commercial brass makers were no longer always making their own brass. I concluded some years RP did not make brass and just had WW make some extra and mark it RP, and vice-versa. Or Federal. I know a lot of Hornady is now made by PPU. There is some logic to all of us following the bench rest crowd and weighing our brass before loading a new batch of range pickup brass just to make sure it weighs close to what we expect it to weigh.
    Anyone else out there with experience finding brass which just doesn't look like it was really made by the company which the headstamp says made it?

  15. #15
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    I still have a large stock of 1942 Denver produced 30-06. Even though I'm young I'm fairly certain I have enough 30-06 casings to last my lifetime. Every time I find USGI brass for a decent price I bite. I have to be nearing 5K now. Over the years my taste in firearms has changed dramatically. I used to be fascinated by autoloaders, and still have a M1 and M1A to feed, however these days I find myself more into bolt actions rifles and .38 revolvers. Brass lasts forever in these applications so long as it is annealed from time to time.

    Recently I purchased a decently large lot of 30-30 from another member on the forum. While sizing them I had 4 neck splits, any time I have to trash a piece of brass I am sad about it. Am I the only one that feels like that?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarrinvz24 View Post

    Recently I purchased a decently large lot of 30-30 from another member on the forum. While sizing them I had 4 neck splits, any time I have to trash a piece of brass I am sad about it. Am I the only one that feels like that?
    I will ponder at length if the broken piece can be repurposed... turned into another !!!!
    Had my first partial head separation recently.. 300 Savage...headstamped 270Win!!!! How many reloads????
    answer... Too Many by 1!!!!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenTolson View Post
    I was talking with some "older" (I'm 62) gentlemen at the last local gunshow... they mentioned that in the late 1960's - early 1970's that they noticed a change in Winchester / Western brass. The new formula brass could only be reloaded 5-6 times before failure... previously they had gotten 12-15.
    I have never seen any credible evidence that cartridge cases have ever been made, anywhere at any time, from any brass other than 70-30. Of course it's possible that they have, but it would definitely be an exception. 70-30 is ideally suited to the purpose, and even bears the name, one would need a very good reason to stray from the path.

    What has changed however, is the manufacturing processes. A couple of weeks ago I was looking at a 1944 Dominion Arsenal (Canada) .303 case under the microscope and the microstructure could only be called startlingly different from what I see in modern cases. I have no doubt the chemistry is essentially unchanged, but the structure sure is.

    From what I have seen, in the mid-50s Olin starting sponsoring quite a bit of research into how processing of brass could affect its properties. See this paper from 1955 as an example. This seems to have culminated in the modern process, wherein heavy reductions followed by high-speed annealing at relatively high temperature creates a very fine-grained microstructure of randomly oriented grain nucleii. The microstructure is good for the manufacturer, as it provides high strength and a relatively high toughness that should provide a little more tolerance for drawing flaws.

    Did Olin ever investigate how it impacted brass for reloaders? Probably not. But a high-strength, fine-grained microstructure is usually a good thing in application. Any case that I have looked at that has failed after just 5-6 firings has always failed due to stress-corrosion cracking. I guess it could be that Olin's modified process made the brass more prone to build up of residual stress, which made it susceptible to SCC after fewer firings.

    In my experience, modern bottlenecked rifle brass usually survives 20-30 firings when subjected purely to the stresses of loading and firing, but if your brass gets exposed to the wrong atmosphere in storage that can be reduced in a hurry. That of course is why arsenals around the world started stress-relief annealing their cases back around World War I.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by BrassMagnet View Post
    When I was young, I could usually call the headstamp on brass laying on the ground just from the color of it. As time went by, I found some cases where the color did not match the headstamp. Where the color did not match the headstamp I also found other differences such as size of the print on the headstamp, deepness of the print on the headstamp, and case wall thickness/weight.
    I concluded the American commercial brass makers were no longer always making their own brass. I concluded some years RP did not make brass and just had WW make some extra and mark it RP, and vice-versa. Or Federal. I know a lot of Hornady is now made by PPU. There is some logic to all of us following the bench rest crowd and weighing our brass before loading a new batch of range pickup brass just to make sure it weighs close to what we expect it to weigh.
    Anyone else out there with experience finding brass which just doesn't look like it was really made by the company which the headstamp says made it?
    Where did you get this info? I can't comment about the big 3 over the decades, but I'd have to see some proof Hornady had PPU make their brass. That's Hornady's baby, USA made components. All their brass (and bullets, and most else) is made right in Nebraska. I'm certain they would never let a foreign manufacturer make their brass. I also have strong doubts about Federal ever outsourcing brass, except for their military stuff from Lake City. The Federal plant in Anoka, MN is massive.

    I do wonder about the quotes of 70/30 and 60/40 brass. As BrassMagnet says, I can often pick out brands by the color, even today. Yesterday I sorted some 30-06 brass, and the Federal brass was clearly darker than the Winchesters. Both were sized the same day, and cleaned at the same time. I don't know what could cause such a color discrepancy other than the brass alloy being different.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    I think Outpost75 posted the definitive answer on this.
    Cognitive Dissident

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    I don't want to be mean about this, but Outpost75 didn't even get the base metal correct. It's 70Cu-30Zn, so a change from 60:40 to 70:30 uses more copper, not less. Not to mention that 60:40 is an alpha-beta alloy and would be a disaster to deep draw.
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