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Thread: I found a better cleaning fluid for my 22LR

  1. #81
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    They did send a couple of extra mirrors along. No mention of what they were or were for.
    No mention of what the one with the red cap was either. I had that one on my probe but I will try one of the others to see what happens. It may improve my pictures.
    I think the different angles give you a slightly larger or smaller area included in the picture. It won't show up that way in the photo because the micro camera is round and all the area photographed will be shrunk to fit lengthwise. The same scratch or lump might appear longer or shorter depending on which mirror is on the probe.
    For our purposes, I doubt if it matters.

  2. #82
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Curious - has anyone pulled the MSDS for this C4 product to see what's in it?
    Cognitive Dissident

  3. #83
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Curious - has anyone pulled the MSDS for this C4 product to see what's in it?
    Cognitive Dissident

  4. #84
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Curious - has anyone pulled the MSDS for this C4 product to see what's in it?
    Here you go. Seems pretty harmless.
    https://www.shootingequipment.de/out...urity_data.pdf

  5. #85
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Here you go. Seems pretty harmless.
    https://www.shootingequipment.de/out...urity_data.pdf
    Now if only one of us was a Chemist and understood what those chemicals were, they'd probably spot the one chemical that's responsible for penetrating under & through the carbon.
    Then most likely you could buy that ingredient alone for much cheaper than the labeled C4...blend that chemical into Hoppes or your favorite stuff and have a killer bore cleaner for ¢'s on the $.
    It's times like this that I wish I hadn't gotten kicked out of Chemistry 101 in High School for blowing air into the gas line and goofing up a class test.
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  6. #86
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Now if only one of us was a Chemist and understood what those chemicals were, they'd probably spot the one chemical that's responsible for penetrating under & through the carbon.
    Then most likely you could buy that ingredient alone for much cheaper than the labeled C4...blend that chemical into Hoppes or your favorite stuff and have a killer bore cleaner for ¢'s on the $.
    It's times like this that I wish I hadn't gotten kicked out of Chemistry 101 in High School for blowing air into the gas line and goofing up a class test.
    I am not really worried about the cost for the large bottle I bought. It only takes a few drops per patch and a few drops on a bore mop to get the job done. A 16 ounce bottle will last a long time.
    With the results, I consider it money well spent.
    How much would you need to pay a gunsmith to find and eliminate the carbon ring problem if you didn't have a borescope and the C4 Carbon Cleaner?

  7. #87
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Glad you guys decided to get bore scopes, huge plus when you can visually see what you're doing/learning curve.

    Glad you found a good bbl cleaner, a simple soap/scale remover/varnish remover all rolled into 1.

    Not trying to bust anyone's chops but why you guys haven't actually studied/researched 22lr bbl's is beyond me.

    A simple reality:
    Not all bbl's are created equal. You can take 10 $400+ 22lr match bbl's from the same mfg. If you're lucky 3 of those 10 with be shooters and if your real lucky 1 of them will shoot lights out. Just because a bbl is on a "match" rifle or is supposed to be a "custom" bbl doesn't mean squat. Take my dog for example, we got him from a family that bought him for a 3 year old boy. Needless to say he ate a lot of junk food/cereal/potato chips/etc. So any time he hears a plastic bag rattle he's right there. In his mind if it comes in plastic it's gotta be good. Well it's a match bbl/came on a match rifle, it's gotta be good.

    How clean is too clean? How much should I keep the bbl clean? How often should I clean the bbl?

    All of you understand revolvers and the relationship of the cylinder diameters to the bbl diameter. A rimfire bbl is no different except for 1 little thing. A good rimfire bbl it tapered/taper lapped. The amount of the taper lapping is varies and can be custom ordered. I've never seen the taper past .215" at the muzzle with .217"/.218" being the most common.

    You want your bbl clean, like in stripped down to nothing left but steel. Run a tight patch slowly down the bbl starting at the chamber. You're feeling for any tight spots/rough areas/etc. If you feel anything mark the rod and the see what you felt with your bore scope. You should feel the tight patch get harder to push when you get to within 2" of the muzzle (taper). If you don't feel a taper near the muzzle that speaks volumes of the quality of the bbl you're using. Couldn't even begin to count how many ties someone had a "custom" 22lr bbl on a build that turned out to be a center fire bbl (no taper).

    Great you got a clean bbl and inspected it for flaws with a tight patch and bore scope. I typically buy cases of ammo to test firearms with when working on them. I get consistent feedback this way. The 1st thing I do with the clean bbl is go to the range and shoot at anything/dirt clods/etc, doesn't matter. I'm looking at how many shots it took to get a star pattern/lube purge on the on the muzzle.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Do this 2 or 3 times (separate range trips with a clean bbl) and get the average of how many shots it took to see the star on the muzzle. This is telling you how many shots it takes to season the bbl. Take the seasoned bbl back home and inspect it with your bore scopes & then use a tight patch feeling for tight spots.

    This is where the jb bore paste comes in. You already know about the glass chamber leade thing. The bore past will burnish this area along with any rough spot/tool marks in the bbl. Run the tight patch/jb paste from the chamber up to +/- 2" from the muzzle. Give the bbl 30/40 passes and clean and re-test seeing how many shots it takes to season the bbl.

    After 3/4 range trips establishing how many shots it takes to season the bbl and working on the rough spots in the bbl. It's time to start cleaning the bbl in different ways in different areas to manipulate the bbl for accuracy.

    Always keep the chamber and leade clean. No carbon buildup in this area because it never builds up evenly and will distort the bullet along with making the bullet's diameter smaller. You all know what happens when the cylinders on a revolver are too small, same thing with a 22lr bbl. You want to run a tight patch down the bbl while at the range. You want to record how many shots it takes from a clean bbl to run the tight patch down the bbl and feel nothing but a smooth even push (no rough spots/chatter/etc). Do not do anything to the last 2" of the bbl unless you are getting an uneven star shaped lube purge on the muzzle. If so, correct this if you can (new crown/lapping uneven bbl or chatter/tooling marks). Typically if the last 2" of bbl is bad with a 22lr bbl it's junk. This is where the accuracy game is truly won or lost with production bbl's.

    Keep going to the range and shooting targets, keep the chamber clean after every outing. Run a tight dry patch down the bbl after every outing, do nothing to the last 2" of bbl & keep the muzzle clean/wiped down (crown). Keep doing this and inspecting the bbl with your bore scope. You don't want to see any leading/buildup in the bbl, if you do keep polishing with the bore paste.

    What you're trying to do is keep the chamber clean & smooth/no pitting so it doesn't deform the bullet or make the bullet chamber off center to it's healed base (automatic flier).

    You want the main body of the bbl free from defects that will size the bullet smaller, out of round, cause the bullet to skid.

    You want the last 2" of bbl to be evenly built up with fouling turning the bbl into a tapered bbl. This taper at the end of the bbl aids in taking any flaws the bbl made to the bullet out of play by trueing the bullets base to the body/sides of the bullet.

    You will find that when you get the flaws out of the body of the bbl it will only need a tight dry patch ran down it for cleaning until accuracy falls off from buildup.

    Myself I clean the chambers on my production rifles after every outing. I run a tight dry patch down the bbl and stop 2" before the muzzle every 8/9 cleaning and run the patch the whole length of the bbl 1 time after the 8/9 cleaning. I clean the star on the crown every cleaning paying attention to what it looks like. Even is good, uneven ='s somethings wrong in the bbl. If I start to feel tight spots or rough spots in the body of the bbl when running the tight patch down it. That tells me it's time to deep clean & jb bore paste it again.

    Anyway every bbl is different so there is no set answer on how clean is clean/when to clean/etc. You eyes, the constant feel of the tight patch & your targets will tell you when to clean.

    Keep in mind that these things will improve the accuracy of a bbl but there's only so much you can do. If you truly have a good bbl, keep it spotlessly clean. If you don't manipulate the bbl thru cleaning.

  8. #88
    Boolit Master

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    I've got a question about that pesky "carbon ring" buildup in a 22 rifle I own. I bought a 50's Rem 514 and apparently it only consumed 22 shorts. So, when I fire 22LR in it, the spent casing sticks and pulls out of the grip of the extractor/ejector. Now my question: I've tried the Carbon fouling cleaners; scrubbing with a bore brush, ect. SO, would a 22 LR Chamber Reamer be a viable solution?

  9. #89
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparky45 View Post
    I've got a question about that pesky "carbon ring" buildup in a 22 rifle I own. I bought a 50's Rem 514 and apparently it only consumed 22 shorts. So, when I fire 22LR in it, the spent casing sticks and pulls out of the grip of the extractor/ejector. Now my question: I've tried the Carbon fouling cleaners; scrubbing with a bore brush, ect. SO, would a 22 LR Chamber Reamer be a viable solution?
    I had that issue with my Winchester when I shot shorts in it for several years. I even had leftovers from that carbon ring in there until just a week ago. The is C4 carbon remover took it out. It took two or three applications and I had to leave it sit there while the remover soaked in but it did take it out.

    You could do it with a chambering reamer but why do that when this new chemical should do the job?

    Forrest r----I have a 455 Varmint that shoots okay but not great. I am going to go through the process you describe and see how much the accuracy and performance increases. This is a process that will take a while to complete as you well know. Given the weather changing here, I am not certain how many trips I will get to the range before I have to move inside for the winter. I consider this to be a long term learning experience so I am not going to be pushing really hard to finish it.
    Last edited by tazman; 11-03-2021 at 07:47 PM.

  10. #90
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    "Thank You Forrest R.!"
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  11. #91
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    I've been watching this thread since the beginning with interest. I've been cleaning for years now with a modified reds, marvel mystery oil, ATF, and real mineral spirits. I'm not sure what's in ATF that dissolves lead, but I soak suppressors in it a week and the fouling comes off with a tooth brush! Works wonders on.22lr revolver cylinder faces. Personally I believe more. 22lr barrels are ruined by poor cleaning techniques than by no cleaning. I have found that cleaning the area just in front of the chamber, pulling a wet patch through, followed by a couple of dry patches work to keep my rifles accurate enough for me. If your talking about rimfire bench rest competition, that's in a whole different league of accuracy, planetary alignment, appeasing the proper gods, and being able to read the wind like a swallow! I've come to view. 22lr barrels about like cast iron skillets. They've got to be seasoned properly, and that seasoning maintained, but eventually stripped to bare iron and started over again.
    With out great chambers, great ammo, and great guns, chasing the accuracy fairy is like trying to catch a leprechaun!

  12. #92
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I've been watching this thread since the beginning with interest. I've been cleaning for years now with a modified reds, marvel mystery oil, ATF, and real mineral spirits. I'm not sure what's in ATF that dissolves lead, but I soak suppressors in it a week and the fouling comes off with a tooth brush! Works wonders on.22lr revolver cylinder faces. Personally I believe more. 22lr barrels are ruined by poor cleaning techniques than by no cleaning. I have found that cleaning the area just in front of the chamber, pulling a wet patch through, followed by a couple of dry patches work to keep my rifles accurate enough for me. If your talking about rimfire bench rest competition, that's in a whole different league of accuracy, planetary alignment, appeasing the proper gods, and being able to read the wind like a swallow! I've come to view. 22lr barrels about like cast iron skillets. They've got to be seasoned properly, and that seasoning maintained, but eventually stripped to bare iron and started over again.
    With out great chambers, great ammo, and great guns, chasing the accuracy fairy is like trying to catch a leprechaun!
    It is, indeed, a deep rabbit hole. We still have a long way to go.

  13. #93
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    MY C4 finally arrived!
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  14. #94
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I finally got around to using the C4 in the MKII. The Sewer Pipe Barrel...
    I plugged the barrel at the muzzle end with an earplug, hung the rifle off the vise and filled C4 in the barrel with a syringe....



    I let it sit for 1 hour 24 minutes, drained the barrel and scrubbed with the nylon bristle brush...prolly 25+ strokes...then pushed 5 dry patches through...



    Here's the before pictures of various places in the barrel including muzzle and chamber...a terrible sight to behold...



    Here's the after 'C4' pictures...still a sight to make your GrandMa shutter!



    I think this barrel is beyond cleaning...never seen a black barrel before & have no idea how it came this way from the factory?

    Funny afterthought...someone will say, My MKII cleans just fine...looks beautiful when I look down the bore!
    Mine does too...it's when you put the borescope in there that you get shocked!

    Last edited by OS OK; 11-15-2021 at 08:07 PM.
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  15. #95
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    My thought is there is some blueing inside the barrel that is leaving dark areas. I could be very mistaken about that though.

    I am currently working on a CZ 455 varmint barrel that has dark areas. It is weird in that two or three inches will be dark and the next two or three will be light. It goes like that the entire length of the barrel.
    When I run a tight patch down the barrel, I can't feel any inconsistencies in smoothness. There are no spots where it gets tight and then loosens up for a bit.
    There are also machining marks inside this particular bore. They leave a ring all the way around the bore as if the tool that did the rifling chattered just a bit right there.
    The chamber is rough looking with rings in it also.
    By comparison, my MTR is pristine.

    The funny part is, there is no difficulty extracting the brass no matter what ammo I use in it.
    The accuracy is close to what I am getting with my MTR but not quite there.

    I am planning on running a large quantity of plated ammo through this rifle and see if it cleans up any. I am also going to use JB bore paste/Bright in it and see if that cleans any of the imperfections up.
    This one is going to take quite a while to get done. A lot of shooting and a lot of cleaning to see the possible end results.

    I did one session with the Bore Bright, All it did was put a shine on the high spots so far. It may never touch those machining marks or the dark areas.

    I wonder if we may be overthinking this a bit?

  16. #96
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    My thought is there is some blueing inside the barrel that is leaving dark areas. I could be very mistaken about that though.

    I am currently working on a CZ 455 varmint barrel that has dark areas. It is weird in that two or three inches will be dark and the next two or three will be light. It goes like that the entire length of the barrel.
    When I run a tight patch down the barrel, I can't feel any inconsistencies in smoothness. There are no spots where it gets tight and then loosens up for a bit.
    There are also machining marks inside this particular bore. They leave a ring all the way around the bore as if the tool that did the rifling chattered just a bit right there.
    The chamber is rough looking with rings in it also.
    By comparison, my MTR is pristine.

    The funny part is, there is no difficulty extracting the brass no matter what ammo I use in it.
    The accuracy is close to what I am getting with my MTR but not quite there.

    I am planning on running a large quantity of plated ammo through this rifle and see if it cleans up any. I am also going to use JB bore paste/Bright in it and see if that cleans any of the imperfections up.
    This one is going to take quite a while to get done. A lot of shooting and a lot of cleaning to see the possible end results.

    I did one session with the Bore Bright, All it did was put a shine on the high spots so far. It may never touch those machining marks or the dark areas.

    I wonder if we may be overthinking this a bit?
    Naaah...taz...I don't think so. We are trying to identify what the black is and this is the first time anyone has mentioned having blueing in the bore. That makes sense, it could very well be that, I don't know how Savage processes the barrels.
    I do know that if these black areas were in fact carbon...they would reflect low spots in the bore where continuous gassing is occurring but if that's a fact, then...where is the accompanying lead that got cut from the projectiles?
    I can't believe that I have the only black sewer pipe barrel that Savage put out, why hasn't anyone else noticed this in their MKII's?

    I'm not sure if the tuner on the MKII was reset to shoot the Eley Contact or if it is still set for Eley Match. If I remember correctly, the Match ammo had the best groups when the tuner was set back of the muzzle by 1/16'th inch, this looks like I've reset it to about 3/16'ths when I started shooting the Eley Contact ammo?



    I did just break into a new shipment of Match that is rated 1 fps faster than my old used up batch of Match...so that may be the problem but it didn't shoot well today after the C4 cleaning...



    It looked like it was starting to settle in some on the last 3 lines of the card but here again I was the problem too...I was trying to compensate for the wind and we all know how well I don't do that!
    You can see all the spots where I cut paper on the left side of the X...that's where I over compensated for the wind...a few of them went pretty far left against the wind, that's where the wind dropped off some and I sent it without knowing...Geeez, I am miserable at judging the wind!
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  17. #97
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Here is an update on the CZ 455 Varmint I mentioned in post #95.
    After cleaning the rifle, I used some JB Bore Bright inside the barrel. I used the basic technique described by Forrest-R in post #87.
    I used a bore brush with a patch wrapped around it to get the fit I wanted. I put a generous amount of JB BORE Bright on the patch. Starting from the chamber, I worked it up an down the bore except for the last 4 inches of the barrel nearest the muzzle. I worked it at least 50 strokes 20 of which only went about 8 inches down the barrel.
    I then cleaned all this out of the barrel and inspected using my borescope. I didn't see much difference. The tops of the rifling were shined up somewhat. None of the chatter marks or rings seemed to be changed at all. None of the dark areas got any lighter. I ran a dry patch down the bore feeling for tight spots and didn't find any.
    I waited a day then did it again. Still no obvious changes. This bore paste doesn't cut fast which is undoubtedly a good thing. I wouldn't want it to go so fast that it ruined the barrel by overuse.

    I took the rifle to the range today. I seasoned it with Eley Match and then fired 5 five shot groups. I got the best groups I have ever fired with this rifle.
    I shot 5 more groups using Eley Club. These groups were good but not on par with the Match.
    I then fired 5 groups with Lapua Midas+ after seasoning the barrel. These groups were tight and on par with the Eley Match. The only issue was the groups were moving around a bit and didn't stay in one spot.
    I am going to continue the barrel treatment a few more times and see if it improves even further.
    This first test showed way more improvement than I expected to see.
    Here is the target with the groups I fired.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #98
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    THAT'S GOOD NEWS TAZ....You mentioned the groups moving around, I experience that too. With different speed ammo, the first thing I think of is differing barrel times and them exiting the muzzle when it's pointed in a little different direction due to the harmonics.
    I can't explain that other than most likely it's me being inconsistent on the cheek weld or inducing sideways pressure against the buttstock.
    When I get the front rest dialed in sometimes I forget to lock that Mariners wheel screw, I think that may cause inaccuracy also?

    Were you fighting some wind also?
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  19. #99
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    THAT'S GOOD NEWS TAZ....You mentioned the groups moving around, I experience that too. With different speed ammo, the first thing I think of is differing barrel times and them exiting the muzzle when it's pointed in a little different direction due to the harmonics.
    I can't explain that other than most likely it's me being inconsistent on the cheek weld or inducing sideways pressure against the buttstock.
    When I get the front rest dialed in sometimes I forget to lock that Mariners wheel screw, I think that may cause inaccuracy also?

    Were you fighting some wind also?
    Yes but I wasn't going to talk about that. Temp was between 43 and 50 degrees and changing. Wind was 12 mph and swirling. Just how things go sometimes.
    The range where I shot is partially protected from the wind from some directions. Not from today;s wind though. At least it was fairly consistent.
    Here is a target I fired with my MTR as an ammo test. It will give you some idea of how things were going since you have seen how that rifle shoots.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    By the way, Sellier & Bellot ammo stinks. They advertise it as the ultimate precision ammunition but I have lots of stuff that shoots better.

  20. #100
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Bizarre taz...been there and done that card before.
    When it's strong and swirling...for me it's ureadable.

    You should try making some simple wind flags from some broken broom or rake handles so you can actually see what the wind is doing in your lane.
    They are simple, a 10" gutter nail on the bottom end will hold it upright and the rest is self explanatory.



    This is one of my first flags with 2" of duct tape folded over the long end and the tape is 24" long...this flag is saying 5 to 6 mph, at 45º it says 3 mph.
    At some point we are going to have to learn to read wind and doctor our shots...might as well get started now?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check