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Thread: I found a better cleaning fluid for my 22LR

  1. #41
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    georgerkahn's Avatar
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    Again, tazman, my sincere appreciation. I Googled "Teslong Rifle Bore Scope, 0.2inch Gun Barrel Borescope Camera, Side-View Mirror" and coming up on Amazon dot com are FOUR different versions. Great (to me ) is the prices on any of them are ever soooo much lower than I reckoned a bore camera commands! B&H Phpurveys a Toshiba at the bargain give-a-way price of $2,681.25 -- this before sales tax + shipping (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...borescope.html). The Hawkeye sells on their own site in the five to six grand (USD) range! https://www.gradientlens.com/product...le-borescopes/
    Hence -- I am most happily surprised (and thankful you answered my query to you ) that one can be had at such an almost affordable price!
    (This month's retirement cheque's already spoken for ... but... next month???)
    Amazon's listing is at https://www.amazon.com/Teslong-Bores...b_title_sports -- I'm thinking of the $69.99USD one.
    Is this the unit you have? While my plug-in-wall computer is a Windows 10 -- I have a relatively new iPad, which is what I'd like to take downstairs -- using it in my "den".
    Thanks again!
    geo

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    That appears to be the exact same unit I have. The picture is identical to the picture where I purchased mine.
    Currently, there are several on our favorite auction site for between $55 and $65 and upwards including shipping.
    Of course you can get yours where you wish as they all work the same. I am just presenting options, not recommendations.

  3. #43
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    georgerkahn's Avatar
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    "Buy now...get the bill next month" -- ain't credit great? (sic) Thank you (?) tazman -- after reading your (thanks again) reply (#42) I ordered one from Amazon. Both the free shipping (Prime) and their no-quibble return-ability (I've only used this once, but was such a relief!) made this the choice. Plus, I'll get the bill in a few weeks and can/will pay with zero interest -- quite a deal . Amazon, too, suggested the BoreTech cleaner as well as their Copper cleaners -- I added the copper cleaner to my order. I'm "betting the farm" both my welllll-fired H&R Garand and Quality M1 carbines' barrels are almost plated with copper. So impressed with the carbon remover you suggested -- I'd not be at all surprised if the copper remover works as well. I am recalling a similar product I bought some years back, though, where I used it in my basement and it nearly had me lose consciousness. Regardless -- I'll be trying the BoreTech copper cleaner outside on a breezy day!
    Thanks again for all the GOOD posts (advice to me )!
    geo

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I don't have any experience with the Boretech Copper remover, but I would trust it. I have been using Hoppe's Elite Copper terminator or Hoppe's Benchrest for cleaning copper out of my centerfire barrels.
    Several years ago, I had just finished cleaning one of my centerfire barrels when the rifle needed a trip to the gunsmith. While I was there, he ran a borescope down the barrel and stated that was possibly the cleanest rifle barrel he had ever seen with no copper fouling at all.
    I have been trusting these removers ever since.
    Neither of them gives off any dangerous fumes or foul odors. Neither will harm the steel of your rifle barrel.

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    The question(s) in my mind are:
    *Just how clean do we want the chamber & bore to be?
    *How many shots does it take to re-season a bore before you can depend on the next shot, before you are assured of tight groups?

    Since getting the bore scope I have been looking at all the stages of the barrel condition...from fresh clean to dirty seasoned to the point where I think the accuracy is dropping off.
    I've examined the bore carefully during extensive cleaning trying to remove even the last traces of that pesky carbon ring in the chamber. By the time that carbon is gone, any carbon in bore is long gone.

    What "I think" I have observed is this: (pertaining to my CZ452)
    *An absolutely 'squeaky clean' (no traces of carbon) chamber and barrel can take 15 - 25 shots to re-season to the point where I don't have groups that have one of the shots out of group by 1 full diameter and spaced out of the group 'bughole'. (this is Eley Match)
    *Something I have observed many times (after doing what I call a 'quickie cleaning') is that the third warmer spot is some of the best grouping that I'll get all day. This I am not sure of, it has only lately come to my attention.
    [what I call a 'quickie cleaning' is this...when the barrel has around 300 rounds through it (it could be as little as 250 or a little over 300) no concrete data on the total number of shots but I am keeping track of the numbers from each session, written at the bottom of each card.] But...when I do this cleaning, I am running either a wet with Hoppes patch or wet with Hoppes pellet, just one & not several...I work it a little in the chamber and a little in the full length of the bore, not excessively but maybe 12 times in and out all areas combined.
    I pull the patch or pellet and examine it and it is not overly filthy. Next is just one dry patch or pellet, work it about half that many strokes and call it 'good to go'.

    Again...this is all from memory & from shooting those early morning sessions in the Summer where the wind actually stops as it changes direction from the high Sierras towards the valley, then there is that null for 30 minutes to an hour and then it changes and blows up from the valley into the Sierras. I say this because the wind had no input in this 3'rd group or the other warmer spots.

    This last card I shot where I am trying to learn to 'Compensate accurately' for wind direction & intensity sorta reminded me of this phenomena. That made me think of this thread where you are discussing the cleaning solution and carbon deposits.



    The wind during the warmer spots was '0', I couldn't even feel a trace of movement on my face. This time it wasn't like the summer nulls, it was jut a pause, it was switching around later but without any real gusting.
    This third 5 shot group is almost the best group I ever shot, I forget the best number but somewhere around .117" I think...but this group appearing in shots 11 - 15 caught my attention...
    Is this coincidence? I don't know & don't have purposefully gathered data to suggest one way or the other...but, I've seen this happen many times.

    I am starting to believe that carbon deposits tend to smooth out our bores for a certain shot duration before they become excessive deposits, they deposit after a high spot where there's a micro-momentary space between the edge of the projectile and the bore and gasses escape...laying down the carbon there in that streak.
    Deposits tend to accumulate in divots, in the chattering tool marks & scratches...here again I think they tend to smooth the bore like a patch on an asphalt road.

    So...back to the one question: "Just how clean do we want to get our bores?"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    What would happen if you ONLY cleaned out the carbon ring in the throat? Inquiring minds and all that....

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I have developed a way to remove the carbon from the chamber without touching the barrel beyond about 1-2 inches in front of the chamber.
    This might be of benefit to you.

    Using a wet patch, I run the patch into the barrel from the rear until it is right in front of the chamber, then pull it back out. I do this a couple of times, then dry patch the same way.
    If the carbon ring is heavy enough to require it, I use the carbon remover on a bore mop and insert it into the chamber until just in front of the chamber and leave it sit there for 15-20 minutes and soak the chamber. I will then insert a nylon bore brush into the chamber and spin it by hand a dew times. I will then do a few dry patches similar to what was done with the wet patch until all of the fluid is gone and no traces show up on the dry patches.
    This process cleans the chamber without doing anything to the bore.
    A dry patch down the bore will remove any loose powder residue but not the embedded carbon deposits in the rifling since there is no chemical on the patch.
    Usually, after one of these cleanings, the warming/seasoning process(for my rifle) only takes about 5 shots. You are only seasoning the chamber and the first inch or so of the barrel.
    This process has the potential for reducing the amount of ammo fired to season the rifle and reduce the cleaning process somewhat.
    I have only used this a few times and have not done a really long test where I didn't clean anything beyond the chamber for several hundred rounds. I can't say what would happen at this point.

    OS OK----I have also seen that really tight group right after the first few warming shots. I am not certain why it does that and am not certain it does it consistently. I also, have not done enough testing with my longer barreled rifles to know if it happens the same way with them or not. My MTR has a 20 inch barrel as opposed to the 24 inch barrels on my Trainer and AT-1.
    This is something I am going to have to watch.


    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    What would happen if you ONLY cleaned out the carbon ring in the throat? Inquiring minds and all that....
    I think I may have answered your question at least partially.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    What would happen if you ONLY cleaned out the carbon ring in the throat? Inquiring minds and all that....
    I use this swab before every session now...



    I haven't documented in pictures of the bore whether or not it does anything to the actual increasing 'build up' of the carbon ring from successive sessions.
    This routine allows me around 250 shots without any issues I am aware of...hahaaa---yet!

    It's funny...every time we try to get data in 'discovery' or to answer one of the questions, we end up having another question or two that follows.
    I get a real kick out of posts like Tazze's...so much to know.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    I am curious to know whether just removing the ring has the same effect as cleaning out the entire barrel. That ring cannot be doing good things to the bullet as you chamber a round.

    Long ago I ran into this when shooting that primer-only Colibri ammo through a relined Hopkins & Allen. The ring that Colibri stuff leaves is nasty. Hard and difficult to expunge, and it ruined accuracy in as little as twenty rounds. I won't shoot it in ANY .22 anymore, even my beaters.

    Add: Shame on me,.Taz, I only skimmed your post. You DID answer my question....
    Last edited by uscra112; 10-29-2021 at 04:36 PM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    I am curious to know whether just removing the ring has the same effect as cleaning out the entire barrel. That ring cannot be doing good things to the bullet as you chamber a round.

    Long ago I ran into this when shooting that primer-only Colibri ammo through a relined Hopkins & Allen. The ring that Colibri stuff leaves is nasty. Hard and difficult to expunge, and it ruined accuracy in as little as twenty rounds. I won't shoot it in ANY .22 anymore, even my beaters.
    Many many years ago, I went an entire squirrel season shooting short hollow points. They were great for squirrels as they were quiet and very accurate at the ranges I was shooting. Usually a maximum of 20 yards or less since I was good at sneaking up on them back then. I once took five squirrels out of the same hickory nut tree without spooking the others due to the ammo being so quiet. I was using the Winchester 72a that I mentioned earlier.
    After the season was over, I tried to chamber some long rifle ammo in the rifle and could not get them to go in. It took me a while to realize there was a build up of fouling in the chamber. It took me a long time to get it cleaned out with the tools I had at the time.

    You are correct in thinking the carbon ring build up will have a bad effect on a bullet being chambered. That ring builds up to the point where it will ruin things much faster in a tight chamber such as a match rifle than with a standard sporter chamber.
    Nothing rubs against that carbon ring except the bullet itself. The ring forms in front of the case and in between the case and the beginning of the rifling. That part of the bore is tapered till it get to the bore itself. In a match chamber, that is a very short distance since the rifling engraves the bullet on the first drive bands.
    I am considering running a test by just cleaning the chamber as I described and seeing if not cleaning the bore will cause accuracy to fall of and if so, how long it takes.
    My big problem is the weather is turning lousy here. It won't be long before I would be shooting in the snow or freezing temperatures. I won't have a lot of range trips to test this before I have to move inside. My arthritis hates the cold and with the cold comes wind.
    I have never fired these rifles in really cold weather. I don't know how accurate they will be when the temps get below freezing.
    It might be something else I need to test.
    We shall see what happens.

  11. #51
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    Back in the day somebody suggested a homemade tool to clear that carbon ring at the front of the chamber. Take a fired case from your chamber and with a file cut teeth into the leading edge like a hole saw for your drill. Cut the rim off and epoxy it to a 22 jag. Of course you won't get all the carbon ring out unless you tweak the saw teeth a little. After a bit of use you may need to freshen the saw teeth with your file to improve it's efficiency. Good Luck.

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsizemore View Post
    Back in the day somebody suggested a homemade tool to clear that carbon ring at the front of the chamber. Take a fired case from your chamber and with a file cut teeth into the leading edge like a hole saw for your drill. Cut the rim off and epoxy it to a 22 jag. Of course you won't get all the carbon ring out unless you tweak the saw teeth a little. After a bit of use you may need to freshen the saw teeth with your file to improve it's efficiency. Good Luck.
    That would be a pretty effective tool to do that job. I have heard something similar for use in 357 magnum chambers where a lot of 38 special have been fired.
    The only thing that worries me is the extra wear on the match chamber due to the metal on metal rubbing.
    Since I now have a system that works really well, I think I will stick with what I have.

  13. #53
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    My younger son shot a zillion (give or take a few ) rounds of .22 short and .22 caps in a single shot "revolver" I had purchased just for his -- he was maybe 10? -- use. After he graduated to a real revolver, this Savage sat in the bottom/back of the safe until I got the idea it might be 2-fold a great firearm to keep hidden at camp. Albeit single shot, one might be all it takes if needed; and, if someone should steal it -- no real harm.
    Anyhoos -- I could not chamber even a .22 long -- much less a long rifle. After many, many brushes using the old (with naphtha) Hoppes to no great success, I fashioned a "cleaner" from a birch dowel which I chucked in my drill press to grind to just-fit-in-chamber diameter. I then used a hack saw blade to make cross-diameter cuts in one end of the dowel piece, with a hole centre-bored in other to fit over the end of a bent aluminum .22 cleaning rod which had come with a S&W handgun. I inserted and worked it clockwise/counter-clockwise, and removed it after a bit to sand the end flat and make more hacksaw cuts. It seemed to take forever -- more like maybe two and one half hours of doing this -- but I got the major diameter back to where a .22 long rifle cartridge will chamber. HOWEVER, bion, that ring is STILL there where it had built up from the .22 short firing. I was/am afraid if I took more material off to eradicate this -- I'd be actually enlarging the area, which I did not wish to do.
    But... that was my approach and it worked. My thinking was that a clear birch dowel should not hurt the barrel... Maybe I got lucky?
    geo

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    That would be a pretty effective tool to do that job. I have heard something similar for use in 357 magnum chambers where a lot of 38 special have been fired.
    The only thing that worries me is the extra wear on the match chamber due to the metal on metal rubbing.
    Since I now have a system that works really well, I think I will stick with what I have.
    Some of that ring is primer residue, which contains ground glass. Abrasive. I've read that the old belly-shooters could detect wear to the rifling just ahead of the throat from it, and would replace or set back their barrels in the off-season to eliminate it. They even knew that the wear was concentrated at the 6:00 position, because that's where the particles settled between shots.

    Solvents are the solution, (pardon the pun).
    Cognitive Dissident

  15. #55
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    Thanks everyone for a great thread. This is why I’m on this forum.

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Not over yet! Stay tuned!
    Cognitive Dissident

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman... Is it the two products on the right you are using?

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  18. #58
    Boolit Master Ole Joe Clarke's Avatar
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    What a great thread!!
    I stumbled upon this the other day and just finished reading it today. I might be able to improve my .22 LR shooting in my old Marlin model 80 DL, that I have shot countless shells through in the last 50 plus years. I just thought it was my old age and poor eyesight. I know it will shoot better than I can. I am gonna shamelessly try the methods you guys have talked about.

    Thanks again,

    Have a blessed day,

    Leon

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    tazman... Is it the two products on the right you are using?

    The product on the far right(rimfire blend) is one of the products I am using. The other is called C4 Carbon Remover. Here is a picture.Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonto View Post
    Thanks everyone for a great thread. This is why I’m on this forum.
    We love getting feedback like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clarke View Post
    What a great thread!!
    I stumbled upon this the other day and just finished reading it today. I might be able to improve my .22 LR shooting in my old Marlin model 80 DL, that I have shot countless shells through in the last 50 plus years. I just thought it was my old age and poor eyesight. I know it will shoot better than I can. I am gonna shamelessly try the methods you guys have talked about.

    Thanks again,

    Have a blessed day,

    Leon

    As I mentioned, I had that same situation with my Winchester 72a. Uncountable thousands of rounds without ever properly cleaning the chamber. It always seemed to shoot good enough so I didn't worry about it. After getting the carbon out of the chamber throat, it shot better than it has at anytime since I got it. Unbelievable how much difference it made.
    I think you will be pleased with the result.
    Please report back with your results.
    Last edited by tazman; 10-30-2021 at 09:20 PM.

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Not over yet! Stay tuned!
    I certainly hope not. I would love to have some feedback from people who have tried this and have some results to post.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
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GC Gas Check