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Thread: I found a better cleaning fluid for my 22LR

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I found a better cleaning fluid for my 22LR

    After watching a number of cleaning videos, particularly for CZ 452, 455, and 457 rifles, I decided to invest in some new chemistry for cleaning them.
    What I picked up was BoreTech Rimfire Fomula and BoreTech Carbon Remover.

    I have been having some issues with my CZ457 MTR with accuracy dropping off even though I have been cleaning it with Hoppes regularly.I hate to see the groups open up and it was brought to my attention that it might be caused by a buildup of carbon in the barrel and chamber.
    I had already cleaned this rifle using the Hoppes cleaners. I decided to go ahead and clean it again with the BoreTech Rimfire Formula.
    I started with a dry patch to see what might be there and the patch came out clean.
    I then began the recommended process of using the BoreTech. I ran the first wet patch through and took a look and oh boy was that patch dirty. It took 5 patches before one showed reasonably clean. I then ran a wet brush( synthetic/plastic) through the barrel about 10 passes and spun it by hand in the chamber to loosen stuff up. I then ran more wet patches through the barrel. It took 3 patches this time to get clean a clean looking patch.
    I then left the rifle sit for 15 minutes.
    I again ran a wet patch through the barrel. The first one was a little gray. The next was clean looking. I then ran a couple of dry patches through the barrel to remove the cleaner.
    This cleaning method removed a lot of "stuff" from the barrel and chamber even after having been cleaned with Hoppes.
    I can hardly wait to get back to the range to see if my groups improve.

    I haven't tried the Carbon Remover yet. I will leave that for another cleaning session.

    Does anyone else have stories about finding better cleaning products?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    I wouldn't be surprised if it took 10 or 20 rounds to bring the accuracy back to what you are expecting. Dont get frustrated if it doesnt group in the first few shots.

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    Interestingly, I have two CZ 452 Varmint .22 rifles (s/n A770xxx and A557xxx), both adorned with Weaver Classic 3-9x32 scopes and Harris bipods. I had a similar group opening (HUH??? OMG!!!) with one of the two, and used my regular (til then) Shooter's Choice. Not seeing any great improvement, range-buddies suggested it may be my choice of .22, suggesting copper clad. From "the old school" where we were "taught" the copper-clad for semi-autos and wax/lub .22s for all other actions -- I instead sought a different cleaner.
    The one I found and used is Montana X-treme Rimfire Blend. Midway USA purveys it (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014780889). However, I did NOT see a marked improvement, albeit -- like your experience -- patches did come out quite soiled.
    Doing "test-shooting" with a rest at range, a friend suggested I try Butch's Bore Shine -- another then new to me product. The Butch's seemed to do the trick -- and frankly, this is ALL I use in every firearm I own ('cept, of course, the air rifles -- Ballistol only for them).
    I even complement the Bore Shine with Butch's Gun Oil -- applying a thin coat after each cleaning -- to be removed with a Zippo-lighter-fluid moist patch immediately before next shoot...
    geo

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK7saum View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if it took 10 or 20 rounds to bring the accuracy back to what you are expecting. Dont get frustrated if it doesnt group in the first few shots.
    I have been doing bench rest shooting with the 22lr this past year or so. I am familiar with the need to season the bore before trying for the best groups.
    While I hate to "waste" the ammo warming the barrel, it is necessary to get those tiny groups.

    Still, this was a good piece of information to bring up as I expect there are many who don't know about that quirk that 22lr rifles have.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master slim1836's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing.

    Slim
    JUST GOTTA LOVE THIS JOINT.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Taz...I think that continued dirty patch thing is us cleaning the carbon out of the scratches/tooling marks in the barrel. I think the carbon collects there and rounds out the ID of the barrel & seals the barrel as the projectile passes.
    When we wet that carbon build up in the marks, scrub a little and start pushing dry patches it removes some of it but still it remains. What is left is softening from the first wet patch and the second & consecutive times we wet patch we are just cleaning deeper in the tool marks.
    For me & my way of thinking...I don't believe it's necessary since an absolutely clean barrel needs more fouling shots to season and start performing again because we are re-filling those tool marks with new carbon.
    I still use Hoppes for Pb and Butches when I'm after the Cu. cleanup but I'm in the habit now of just running a wet mop, letting it sit a few minutes and then pushing 3 dry patches and calling it good. My OCD could take me over the edge with this barrel scrubbing stuff so I deliberately go against my own tendency to overdo it.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    George Stidworthy, Mark Humpreville, Pres Kendall, Maurice Kaiser and Lones Wigger never used anything other than pure mineral oil USP and cotton patches. Otherwise you wear out more barrels from cleaning than by shooting.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Taz...I think that continued dirty patch thing is us cleaning the carbon out of the scratches/tooling marks in the barrel. I think the carbon collects there and rounds out the ID of the barrel & seals the barrel as the projectile passes.
    When we wet that carbon build up in the marks, scrub a little and start pushing dry patches it removes some of it but still it remains. What is left is softening from the first wet patch and the second & consecutive times we wet patch we are just cleaning deeper in the tool marks.
    For me & my way of thinking...I don't believe it's necessary since an absolutely clean barrel needs more fouling shots to season and start performing again because we are re-filling those tool marks with new carbon.
    I still use Hoppes for Pb and Butches when I'm after the Cu. cleanup but I'm in the habit now of just running a wet mop, letting it sit a few minutes and then pushing 3 dry patches and calling it good. My OCD could take me over the edge with this barrel scrubbing stuff so I deliberately go against my own tendency to overdo it.
    You are right to a point. The issue is a carbon "ring" build up at the mouth of the chamber and just into the rifling. It gets hard and difficult to remove after a certain number of shots. This "ring" will build up enough to swage down your bullets when they are fired and destroy your accuracy.
    At least this is what I was finding out during my searches and studies.
    I can always fire a few bullets to season the barrel. I have to fire some to warm the barrel in any case. I can only remove that carbon ring with the chemicals and cleaning process.
    I think that those warmer shots do more to freshen the lube than to fill any possible tool marks with carbon.
    CZ 22lr rifle barrels are lapped at the factory and should be quite smooth inside from the first shot. Little if any break in should be necessary. This has proved to be true for the rifles I have purchased new.
    Cleaning out the carbon should only return them to their best state.
    The following is from the CZ web site

    "Questions regarding accuracy comparisons between different CZ rifles are often asked. The answer is simple, all CZ rifles have the same quality premium hammer forged CZ barrel. The barrels are lapped at the factory for accuracy, eliminating the need for a “break in” period."


    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    George Stidworthy, Mark Humpreville, Pres Kendall, Maurice Kaiser and Lones Wigger never used anything other than pure mineral oil USP and cotton patches. Otherwise you wear out more barrels from cleaning than by shooting.
    It may well be that mineral oil was one of the most effective cleaners for the residue left by the ammunition they were using at the time.
    Last edited by tazman; 10-19-2021 at 11:38 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I would love to see some pictures of one of your CZ barrels taken with a bore-scope. I get the impression from what your saying that...they don't have any chatter or tool marks...that they are slick as glass.
    I must be mistaken thinking that all barrels, especially the chamber leade area in front of the land have tooling marks.

    thanks - charlie
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  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I did buy a bore scope buy have not yet hooked it up to my laptop. I am thinking today might be a good day to do that.
    As far as tool marks in the barrel or chamber, I can't really answer that for certain yet. I am just running on the information given by the manufacturer.
    CZ does make a very good rifle.

  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=tazman]The issue is a carbon "ring" build up at the mouth of the chamber and just into the rifling. It gets hard and difficult to remove after a certain number of shots. This "ring" will build up enough to swage down your bullets when they are fired and destroy your accuracy.]

    (Many) years back I'd regularly take my younger son (he was maybe 8 yrs old at start) shooting, and for his use I had purchased a single-shot revolver chambered for .22 s-l-lr, but only/always loaded nothing but .22 shorts. I'd never had given it notice or regard until a few years later when I reckoned it might be a great firearm to have hidden at camp... just in case . I then noticed I could not chamber a .22 long rifle in it -- the ring of crud from younger son's hundreds of .22 shorts made quite the ring!!!
    I have no recollection as to number of brush strokes and the like before I could chamber a long rifle .22 -- but that ring from the shorts is still as visible as the nose on anyone's face!
    You (tazman) are more than correct in your observation re the necessity to keep any ring from forming, as well as keeping ahead of any erosion/corrosion -- both, imho, added factors.
    Thank you for your "reminder" re its occurrence! (Later today I'll attempt to remove my CZ's from safe and take a (hopeful) good look at what may be in chamber in front of rifling! Frankly, I never have given thought to the similar from l r ring to that from the shorts' formation!)
    geo

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Did you ever try Ed's Red? Combination of polar and non-polar solvents is supposed to handle carbon with ease. Not unlike what Outpost75 posted.

    That hard ring just in front of the case mouth I've long thought to be as much primer residue as it is carbon.
    Cognitive Dissident

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I did buy a bore scope buy have not yet hooked it up to my laptop. I am thinking today might be a good day to do that.
    As far as tool marks in the barrel or chamber, I can't really answer that for certain yet. I am just running on the information given by the manufacturer.
    CZ does make a very good rifle.
    For as long as I can remember, I'd clean a bore...do what I thought was a good job, then I look down the barrel with light at the other end and it would shine like a diamond in a Goat's butt.



    I smile, pat myself on the head and say..."Good job Charlie!"

    Then recently... I bought a bore scope to see these shiny barrels & chambers up close...

    that's when the reality of the real world set in and crushed all my shiny smooth barrel ideas...



    You can't see this looking down the barrel but it's there just the same...



    I think there's a lot of misconceptions floating around about what our barrels look like inside.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I got the borescope hooked up and working. Boy, did I get an education.
    Yesterday, I used the Boretech Rimfire formula on my CZ 457 MTR and thought I had it clean. WRONG!
    These are pictures from today with the borescope.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The rifling looks good but the area at the end of the chamber is still very filthy with carbon build up.
    These next pic are from after a single application of BoreTech C4 Carbon Remover. It made a world of difference as you will be able to see.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As can be clearly seen, the bore is much cleaner and the carbon at the chamber mouth is GONE.
    I think I can highly recommend the BoreTeck Carbon Remover as an effective product.
    You can also see the lack of tooling/chatter marks in the bore. Very impressive for a stock barrel.

    With all the gunk gone from the chamber and bore, I am hoping it gets back to shooting really well.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    So, how much of this problem is ammo related? We all spend so much time on our centerfire reloads with getting cast bullets of optimized diameter, alloy, and lube that we often end up with barrels that pretty much don't need cleaning to any real degree. Is this fouling ring lead, burned powder residue, unburned powder ground in by the passage of the next bullet, beeswax lube, moly, graphite, or some other factory coating? Seems if we can not have this issue in centerfires using tumble lube, it should be resolvable in rimfires.
    WWJMBD?

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  16. #16
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    It will be interesting to see how many shots it takes to season that clean barrel.

    One question...is it necessary to use good ammunition to do that, or will shooting some econo stuff get it done?

    Interesting stuff.
    Don Verna


  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    So, how much of this problem is ammo related? We all spend so much time on our centerfire reloads with getting cast bullets of optimized diameter, alloy, and lube that we often end up with barrels that pretty much don't need cleaning to any real degree. Is this fouling ring lead, burned powder residue, unburned powder ground in by the passage of the next bullet, beeswax lube, moly, graphite, or some other factory coating? Seems if we can not have this issue in centerfires using tumble lube, it should be resolvable in rimfires.
    It is ammo related in that 22lr burns at a much lower pressure than centerfire and is therefore dirtier. I believe it may be both burned powder residue and a few flakes of unburned powder but I have no real way of knowing for sure. Given the quality of the ammunition I shoot in this rifle(Eley Match and Tenex) and the quantity of lube on the bullets, there may well be some lube mixed in there as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    It will be interesting to see how many shots it takes to season that clean barrel.

    One question...is it necessary to use good ammunition to do that, or will shooting some econo stuff get it done?

    Interesting stuff.
    Seasoning the barrel will take about 10-20 rounds. Usually about 15 to get it to group.
    The seasoning MUST be done with the ammo intended to be used in the rifle. Different lube has a drastic effect on both group size and POI.
    Changing from one brand to another requires that same 10--20 shots for the groups to be their best. The bore must be re seasoned with the lube from the new brand of bullets.
    Many people will do a quick cleaning of the barrel before changing ammo brands/types to avoid any inconsistencies due to a problem with the different lubes not working together well.

    One quick and dirty solution would be to shoot a few rounds of plated ammunition through the rifle to remove the lube from the barrel since most plated rounds don't have any lube on them. After that, you still must season the bore for best groups.
    Last edited by tazman; 10-20-2021 at 08:49 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Taz...those pictures look pretty good from the unfocused pictures you have here...but...I'm thinking that you have chatter in that bore...try screwing your mirror on to the probe a little farther in... or if it's screwed on to the limit...loose it a bit. Your instructions will tell you what the focal length is... Try those pictures again...
    It's shocking when you start looking from the inside how things really are.

    These pictures are out of focus...experiment with the mirror adjustment...
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  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I did what you suggested about tuning for better focus on the borescope. I did get better pictures.
    On the 457 MTR, they didn't change the appearance significantly. The throat area had a couple of very tiny circular scratch marks. The bore still looks smooth and chatter free. The scratches in the throat area should be of no consequence.
    On my other CZ rifles, not so much.
    The 457 AT One was almost as smooth as the MTR but there were more circular scratch rings visible. The bore was good. Pretty much like the MTR.
    On the 455 varmint, there was significant circular scratching in the throat area. Also was some rough spots on the edges of the rifling. Looked like the tool chatter you mentioned. I may need to polish this one.
    The 452 Trainer was much rougher in the throat, the chamber, and the bore. Very noticeable chatter marks. It looks like it needs the polishing BUT, it shoots so well as it is I hate to mess with it other than cleaning.

    What I find interesting is the quality progression from the 452 through the 457. The newer rifles were much better in the smoothness department, particularly in the throat area. The 455 was somewhere in between. The 457 AT-one was pretty good. The MTR was very good.

    I found that I need to use the carbon remover on the other rifles as well. While not built up to the extent the MTR was, there is still carbon fouling there to remove. Something else to do before the next trip to the range.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    taz...Brownells has the JB Bore cleaning paste again...I bought 2 bottles. Now I'll have this and their Bore Shine to top it off with.

    https://www.brownells.com/aspx/searc...=4123&pid=1160

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check