Help with Miroku 1886 accuracy

[wildmusk]

I finally bought a new 1886 deluxe, and looking to start casting bullets for it. I wanted to try a few to see how it shot before investing in mounds. I can't get anything to shoot well, or even ok.

I tried two bullets from Montana Bullet Works, the Lyman 457193 and 457643. I also tried a 405g FP from Missouri Bullet Co.

I have Starline brass and Varget. Fed LG Rifle primers. Have tried 49-55g powder in all of these in 1g increments. Most groups are about 12" at 100yds. Some rounds aren't even on the 18x24 target. In 50 rounds, I was able to put 4 in about 5", and maybe that was just a fluke.

I thought my crimps looked good, but backed off just to see if there was any difference, none so far. Have loaded all to 2.55", and the Lyman 405s a little farther out. I've cleaned the barrel, usually between each string. Noticeable amounts of lead on the patch for several passes, then goes away. How bad is that? Seems like even a moderate marksman should be able to hold 6" with most of these loads.

Any thoughts?

[wildmusk]

A typical patch with lead on it

[JohnH]

Try shooting some jacketed through it, that will help smooth out any rough spots that were left from machining. Also run a tight patch through the barrel to feel if you have any tight spots, and after look in the barrel to see if you can see any patch lint hanging in the barrel.

[30calflash]

You didn't mention the size of the boolits used. Could be the size and hardness aren't compatible with your load and rifle. It seems like a lot of commercial casting outfits are on the small size and they use a harder alloy than needed for some applications.

I've some commercial cast that are .457, kinda small and they look like a harder 'magnum' alloy as far as eyeballing them goes. I've not tried them yet.

Can you get some .459" or larger to try? Also how does it do with jacketed? I know most aren't that interested in jacs but most shoot well and it will give you a baseline to start from.

[wildmusk]

Thanks, I meant to put the sizes down. The bullets were .458, .459, and .460, and the mic out pretty much that way.

I'll try to find some jacketed bullets and inspect the bore. I still have to order some lead to slug the bore, just figured I would see one of these shoot decent.

[BK7saum]

you might back off on the load and see if your accuracy will improve. 55 grains varget is max lever gun load level. Are your bullets plain base or gas check. Id definitely be running gas checks at those levels without any load workup and accuracy testing.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My '86 loves mild loads 38.5gn 3031 with a 420gn Hensley & Gibbs cast boolit sized to 0.460". This group at 100yds with open sights.

[BK7saum]

I see that your Lyman bullets are plain base. You are likely running too hot of a load for the plain base bullets. Back off to trapdoor levels or below and work back up.

[wildmusk]

Thanks, yes, plain base. I just used the data for the rifle and the only powder I have. Have been looking for 4198 and 3031 for a month, can't find any so far. Looking online, no one close sells powder.

I'll def try trapdoor loads...my shoulder will appreciate that.

[Petander]

Thanks, I meant to put the sizes down. The bullets were .458, .459, and .460, and the mic out pretty much that way.

Can you load a couple of dummies and pull a bullet or two? Just to make sure they don't get swaged down during the loading process. Lots of lead chunks in that patch make me think undersize.

I shoot plain base 45-70 cast up to 2000 fps since the 90's with Marlin 1895:s. NOE expanders are my "secret".

[mehavey]

See https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...41&postcount=5
For suggested mould, load, lube, and dimensions all round.

[Larry Gibson]

tried two bullets from Montana Bullet Works, the Lyman 457193 and 457643. I also tried a 405g FP from Missouri Bullet Co.

I have Starline brass and Varget. Fed LG Rifle primers. Have tried 49-55g powder in all of these in 1g increments. Most groups are about 12" at 100yds. Some rounds aren't even on the 18x24 target.


What BK7saum said.....

I see that your Lyman bullets are plain base. You are likely running too hot of a load for the plain base bullets. Back off to trapdoor levels or below and work back up.

[wildmusk]

I can try that also, wondering about the lead myself. But loading down to 42g made all the diff in the world!

Man, can't get a photo to attach, but just shot 4 inside 2", and 3 of them were 1" or less. Makes me rethink whether I still want a receiver sight.

I don't know what a NOE expander is, but will look into it. That and gas checks also. Would be nice to increase velocity if I wanted. For now just happy I have a load that works. Thanks all of you, I'm sure it won't be the last time I show up here with a question.

[barkerwc4362]

I have one of the original Browning 1886s that were marketed in the mid 80s. The load I use is the one Elmer Keith recommended. I use CCI 200 primers, Winchester or Remington cases, IMR 4895, and the Lyman Gould bullet, 457122. The bullets are cast in 1-30 and then paper patched before being sized to .459. The rounds are taper crimped using a 45-70 sizing after the bullets are seated. The load has been chronographed at 1671 fps. Ten rounds will cluster tightly in the ten ring of an SR-1 using a Lyman tang sight at 100 yards. There is no leading.

Bill

[mehavey]

Powder Coat is today's paper patch (and a heckuva lot easier)
(You can) Run pure lead to 1,900 in that 1886, and with a "CEP" of that SR-1 target's X-ring.




(Note: 30-1 is effectively pure lead for hardness purposes.)

[Stopsign32v]

Powder Coat is today's paper patch (and a heckuva lot easier)
(You can) Run pure lead to 1,900 in that 1886, and with a "CEP" of that SR-1 target's X-ring.




(Note: 30-1 is effectively pure lead for hardness purposes.)

What do you mean powder coat is today's paper patch? Sorry just trying to understand if there is hidden benefits.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Definately attach an aperature sight. It will make the sight picture so much sharper (at least for my near 70yo eyes)

[NSB]

I’ve owned/own three Winchester/Miroku 45-70s and one of them was an 1886. All three of them are superbly accurate and each barrel slugged almost exactly the same, .4565-.4570. I started out like you trying to get something to shoot well out of them. I was using purchased bullets and a variety of powders with wildly mixed results. I began to doubt that the gun was going to be accurate and finally tried shooting several different loads of jacketed bullets, Rem 405g JSP. Every load with the jacketed bullets shot very, very close to 1moa five shot groups and my Winchester/Miroku High Wall (same barrel, different gun) shoots sub 1moa on a very consistent basis. I’m not trying to sell you on using jacketed bullets, I’m trying to show you that in all probability it’s the loads you’re using and not the gun. My 1886 shoots five shots into 1.3”-1.7” groups at my private range of 114 yards deck to backstop. Don’t give up on it, either find the right cast bullet or try some jacketed bullets. The Miroku made guns are very well made and very accurate. Good luck with this.

[mehavey]

What do you mean powder coat is today's paper patch?

Paper-patching puts a coupla-thou cotton-based/pulp riding surface on the bullet to prevent lead contact during bore transit.
Seeming fragile, the [cotton] onion-skin paper does an amazingly good job of hanging together all the way through ride.
(In fact it unwraps itself almost completely intact/drops to the ground just a few feet past the muzzle)
"Lube" is not a factor.

Downside?
- It's a PITA to cut, shape, moisten, wrap, and completely dry all those the individual bullets (ask me how I know)
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post4735544
- It's vulnerable to rough handling and sharp edges

UPSIDE:
- It does work: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post4737585
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Powder coat does effectively the same thing as the paper -- just a coupla thou epoxy coating (whole bullet/including base)
that not only prevents lead contact, but protects the base from heat/melting/deformation to a considerable degree.
(Think Gas-Check effect on plain base.)

UPSIDE:
- Shake all the bullets in tupperware for 60 sec ... all at once
- Bake for 20-25 minutes .... all at once
- Done... "Epoxy Patch"
- Tough: Smash it with a hammer... it doesn't care
Pure lead/plain/base/1,900fps/Goulds/spotless bores

I now use it on most all except long bore-riders.
For those I use a very thin LL-ALOX coat/baked at 225 for 2 hours to drive off the solvent and shoot the next day.
ALOX DOWNSIDE: Shoot the next day.

[Bird]

What NSB says. Try 40 grains of varget and see if the leading goes away. Accuracy should improve a lot.
Trap door loads with the plain based bullets, and you might get up to 1400fps, and even at these velocities you may want to add a coat of alox as well as the factory lube. 34 grains of IMR 4198 is also a good load for me. Unique powder will also work good with plain based bullets. Much more than 1350 to 1450fps you need gas checked bullets.
My bore is 0.0457'', and even 1/2 a thou over with the bullets is good enough Go careful with 0.0460 bullets, as the chambers seem tight. If I use .460 bullets I only have a thou or so of wiggle room in the chamber, so I keep my sizing to 0.4585.
Get all the leading out of the bore before trying the above.