Lee 356-125 2R PC tumbling conundrum

[onecallednick]

Long time lurker, first time poster!
I'm shooting the aforementioned (powdercoated, 8-10BHN according to the lee hardness kit) boolits from a Glock 22 with a Rock Slide USA 9mm conversion barrel which I slugged at .355.
First I used a 356 sizer and 4.2 gr 700x and they'd tumble. I have a DPM recoil spring that won't cycle light loads, I'd prefer to keep it because it handles my +P defense loads well.
Next I used my brother's 358 sizer and 4.4gr Win231 and they still tumble.
They size at .3575 with a micrometer and they stay that way after seating.
The OAL is 1.08, any longer and the bullet hits the edge of the chamber.

Where would you start with troubleshooting? Hardness? Charge? Powdercoat consistency? Powder? Should I try a .357 sizer? Throw the mold in the garbage and get a different one? I've seen plenty of folks on the forums getting great results with this mold so I feel like that last one isn't necessary. I have 700x, Universal, CFE Pistol and Win 231.

I also have a 356-95-RF coming which I'd like to use in .380, 9mm and .357 Sig. Is that a better candidate and I should just move on?

Thanks for reading, any help would be much appreciated!

[358429]

Hello welcome.

Do you have slower powders for example power pistol, cfe pistol, unique, autocomp?

I find best results about midrange on the charge weights with those powders and 124 grain powdercoated lead.

I think you are pushing the bullets too fast, at max powder mass or over

The barrel may need a scrubbin

Clean your barrel with the chore boy stands wrapped around the barrel brush and repeat the test by reducing the powder charge.

It also helps trouble shooting if you have pictures of the ammo loaded and the bullets before and after coating.


This is my new experiment I have been testing. 4.3 grain autocomp under a 124 grain miha hollow point at 1.09"


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[onecallednick]

Thanks for your suggestions! I do have CFE Pistol, I'll clean my gun and try some loads with different charges and take some pictures of the bullets and cartridges. What's your technique to get the powdercoat so consistent? Those are way nicer than mine!

[TjB101]

I have both molds. 125 I load with 3.5 to 3.6gr of Bullseye @ 1.075 - very soft shooting.

The 95gr RNFP I load with 4.1gr of Bullseye. (9mm) Shoots great … just an occasional feeding issue.

All sized at .356

Keep trying that 125 with different powders.

[armoredman]

4.2 of 700X is a wee bit much. I also HATE that powder for it's less than stellar metering. I've been using the Lee 124gr TL bullet for so long that I have worn out three molds for it. Powder coated it is the bees knees in darn near every pistol I use it in, usually loaded to 1.095. My PC isn't the most consistent being the shake and bake method, but they work.

[Sasquatch-1]

I am not familiar with this barrel. Is it Polygonal or traditional style rifling?

Using a .44 mag Desert Eagle as an example (polygonal rifling), I tried using cast lead (probably a big No No in a gun with gas port) a while back and found that at the pressures needed to reliably function the gun the bullets tumbled and key holed quite frequently at 15 yds. The bullet was coming out of the barrel so fast it never gripped the rifling.

Now on the other hand, I have a Walther PPQ in 9mm (also polygonal rifling) that shoots that exact bullet using 5.5 grns of Unique quite well either lubed or PC'ed.

[cwlongshot]

My question is does it do this with any other bullet powder or factory ammo??

CW

[358429]

Thanks for your suggestions! I do have CFE Pistol, I'll clean my gun and try some loads with different charges and take some pictures of the bullets and cartridges. What's your technique to get the powdercoat so consistent? Those are way nicer than mine!

I powder coated twice with the eastwood ford blue powder.

I waste some powder when I shake and bake, still probably getting thousands of bullets per pound, this bag is barely started.

I put the clean bullets in the container and shake and add with a clean scooper untill there is loose powder in the bottom, shake some more, preheat the toaster 400-415°F, then bake them in a tray made of hardware cloth for 30 minutes.

Any excess powder goes in the trash or set aside to coat slingshot balls. The quality goes way up with known good clean powder.

If I am going to do all this work what is an extra step or slight wastage? These rounds cost me so little in parts and yet I striked 7 of 10 off hand using only my right hand at a 9 inch paper plate at 50 yards

Maybe you can, too

What powder and process are you using?

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[Walks]

I use the same containers as #358429, except I stand My bullets up on a tray. And I use that same bullet, but NOT 700X. It doesn't meter well enough in small charges.
I suggest Bullseye or Titegroup.
4.0grs under a Lee #356-125-2R will run perfectly in a P-08 Luger, so it should function your G22. It works great in My G23 with only a bbl change.

[wv109323]

I am finding the same thing with the 120 g. TC in a CZ 75B. I was trying to get to a 130
PF or about 1100 fps. The fast powders I tried caused the boolits to tumble. That was WW231 and Bullseye. Using a slower powder,AA No.7 and Blue Dot the boolits would not tumble but accuracy was not good as needed. I still have not found a powder/bullet size that works in the 1100 fps range. I have to slow the boolit down to 850 or so to get good accuracy. My boolits are powder coated in a 1:10 twist.

[Taterhead]

That hefty charge of 700-X might be a bit much to ask of that relatively soft alloy and shallow lands of the Glock barrel. PC is only so forgiving. As has been said, reduce pressure or strengthen the alloy.

For reasons that I don't understand, my 9mm Glocks favor PC cast bullets heat treated to about 18 bhn. My other Glocks are fine at 12 bhn.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have shot quite a few of those boolits and never had a tumbling issue. They have a chubby nose profile and need to be seated a bit deeper In most barrels. I just loaded some over 6 grains of HS-6. The length is 1.0535" and the crimp at the case mouth is .378". These plunk nicely in my Glock 34 bbl. I made these boolits harder than usual at 17.2 bhn to see if that improved the accuracy. They are powder coated and sized to .3565" Will shoot some later today.

Update: no tumbling issues noted. Offhand accuracy was fine. These are traveling at 1175 fps

[Wally]

Not to be critical; from the photo, the crimp seems awfully deep, on the rounds...do you have any chambering issues with them--misfires?

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Not to be critical; from the photo, the crimp seems awfully deep, on the rounds...do you have any chambering issues with them--misfires?

I think you're looking at 358429's photo, and yes that does look like a roll crimp.

[reddog81]

Do you have pictures of the targets? Often times "tumbling bullets" are just the thin target tearing rather than cutting a clean hole.

I've ran a dozen different bullets through a dozen different guns with mild to +P loads and sized from .356 to .358 and never had a 9mm tumble at anything considered a normal handgun distance.

[Rich/WIS]

My experience was like the OP's. Switched to the standard lube 356-120 TC and did not have a problem. I attributed it to the length and design of the bullet, seemed like center of mass was too far forward.

[358429]

Not to be critical; from the photo, the crimp seems awfully deep, on the rounds...do you have any chambering issues with them--misfires?

No problems in my gun, 100% ignition. I'm feeding a CZ P09 Duty.



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[Mal Paso]

I'm new to tiny boolits and bottom feeders and also have the Lee 356-125-2R. After hearing about skidding I water dropped my 95.5/3.5/1 alloy and sized .357". The boolits drop from the mold into water which increases hardness. I had no problem with an 8" target at 25 yards G19 with a Brownells 1 in 10 conventionally riffled barrel, fixed sights. I think it's Cheating to include the chamber in the length of the barrel and it should say 3 inch barrel not 4 but that's just me. LOL

Oh ya, Welcome to the forum!

[AndyC]

I'd never specifically noticed a problem with these (hadn't used them much myself before I sold the mold to get a 115gr MP mold I liked better) but I took a young friend to shoot his first IDPA event (using ammo I'd made for him with some of the cast/PC'd bullets I had left over using Eastwood Maroon) - and one of the scorers came up to me after my buddy's first run and said that my bullets were tumbling.

I went to the cardboard target and noticed that each hole was torn on the side of the hole and was not the typical, relatively clean round hole. When I pressed back behind the tear, the cardboard folded back into place and I could clearly see that the bullet had made a round hole indicating no keyholing - the mark was round but the cardboard was torn, as were all his other shots (and unlike anybody else's holes).

I remember being puzzled but I guess I shrugged off the tearing of the holes to insufficient velocity or something - I was shooting a .45 so I didn't get to try those in my own pistol at the time. Based on what some of y'all are reporting above, I may just load up some of what I have left and try them in my own pistol, this time looking specifically for signs of tumbling.

[everybodydiesintime]

Andyc cast them up n tell us about it. I just got this mold 2 days ago. Made some boolits today gonna PC them tommrow. When I make it to the range with them I'll report back. I bought this mold because I bought a uzi uc9 at a yardsell and it doesn't seem to get along with the lee TL356-125-f trumpcated cones we're a no go. Also hoping they work in a tanfogluo pre 88 tz75.