Seating Die for Cast 357 Magnum?

[tja6435]

I use a Double Alpha powder through Dillon expander and a Dillon seating die, works great. I do not like Hornady dies with the inner sleeve for any cast boolits

[robg]

i have used lyman and lee dies never had a problem if you flared the mouth of the case.

[Char-Gar]

I have loaded various revolver calibers for many years and only rarely has lead shaving been a problem, and then it was because I was doing something wrong. I seriously doubt your die is the issue. Your issue is how you are using it.

Here is what I do.

1. Flare/bell the case mouth, with whatever tool turns your crank, until it will just barely enter the seating die without closing down the case mouth.

2. Take a sized and unflared case and in the press run the seating die down until the case mouth contacts the crimp ring in the die. Then back the die off 1/2 turn and lock it. Then back the seating stem way up.

3. With a bullet in a sized, flared, primed and powdered case, adjust the seating stem down until you have the desired bullet seating depth. Now lock the seating stem

4. Remove the round and run it through a separate die to give it your favorite crimp (roll, taper or profile). You are now done.

Read the above and see what you are doing different, and that will pinpoint you lead shaving issue.

Don't get hung up on any make or style of die. I have never understood the need of a "micrometer seating die". I have a good Starrett 6" calipers with which to measure the OA length of the round, plus perform a multitude of others tasks around the shop.

[Green Frog]

Thanks Char-Gar. You said exactly what I would have said if I hadn't been too lazy to type it!

Froggie

[Char-Gar]

Thanks Char-Gar. You said exactly what I would have said if I hadn't been too lazy to type it!

Froggie

You are quite welcome Green One. I keeping reminding myself, there is a learning curve to all of this. I did my leadshaving many moons ago. Sometimes it helps folks to do things by the numbers. Most often, when folks try to help, they jump into the middle of the issue and fail to teach about the whole process that will have the issue within it.

[Green Frog]

Well Char-Gar, there are three kinds of learners. Some can read and accept; some observe and accept; but some still have to pee on the electric fence to get the message.

It really isn’t brain science or rocket surgery. You just have to give the base of the bullet room enough to start into the case mouth. I can’t understand why this took us two pages of discussion… maybe it should be a sticky.

Your Phriendly ‘Phibian

[Daekar]

I have loaded various revolver calibers for many years and only rarely has lead shaving been a problem, and then it was because I was doing something wrong. I seriously doubt your die is the issue. Your issue is how you are using it.

Here is what I do.

1. Flare/bell the case mouth, with whatever tool turns your crank, until it will just barely enter the seating die without closing down the case mouth.

2. Take a sized and unflared case and in the press run the seating die down until the case mouth contacts the crimp ring in the die. Then back the die off 1/2 turn and lock it. Then back the seating stem way up.

3. With a bullet in a sized, flared, primed and powdered case, adjust the seating stem down until you have the desired bullet seating depth. Now lock the seating stem

4. Remove the round and run it through a separate die to give it your favorite crimp (roll, taper or profile). You are now done.

Read the above and see what you are doing different, and that will pinpoint you lead shaving issue.

Don't get hung up on any make or style of die. I have never understood the need of a "micrometer seating die". I have a good Starrett 6" calipers with which to measure the OA length of the round, plus perform a multitude of others tasks around the shop.

I suspect that you didn't read the entire thread. I did exactly what you describe, believing that my adjustments and usage were the problem. I always suspect myself as the weak link in a process, and that is often correct. However, in this case I was able to eliminate those possibilities, and my ultimate conclusion is supported by others who have had trouble with tightly-machined Redding dies. I think that your approach would be correct in 99% of cases, but this situation seems to be exceptional. Would have been a lot easier had it not been!

[Green Frog]

I suspect that you didn't read the entire thread. I did exactly what you describe, believing that my adjustments and usage were the problem. I always suspect myself as the weak link in a process, and that is often correct. However, in this case I was able to eliminate those possibilities, and my ultimate conclusion is supported by others who have had trouble with tightly-machined Redding dies. I think that your approach would be correct in 99% of cases, but this situation seems to be exceptional. Would have been a lot easier had it not been!

Daekar, I say this with all due respect and having read what you described as having happened. You will not shave lead when you seat a bullet without any crimp into a properly belled case mouth. Period. If you then close the belled case mouth on the bullet which is already in place there is no movement of the bullet against the case mouth to produce a shaving effect. This is simple geometry.

You have to have the bullet moving downward into the too tight too soon case mouth for the case mouth to shave lead from the bullet body. If the case mouth is simply closed in against the stationary side of the bullet, no shaving can occur. OTOH, you may smear some lead from the exposed bullet nose with a die that is a gross mismatch to the exposed bullet nose diameter/profile. Depending on the interior profile and degree of taper of your crimping die, you should be able to eliminate this by raising the die slightly to give a less severe crimp. If this doesn’t work and lead still smears from a bullet that is stationary in the case you do indeed have a serious problem with that die.

Green Frog

[Daekar]

Daekar, I say this with all due respect and having read what you described as having happened. You will not shave lead when you seat a bullet without any crimp into a properly belled case mouth. Period. If you then close the belled case mouth on the bullet which is already in place there is no movement of the bullet against the case mouth to produce a shaving effect. This is simple geometry.

You have to have the bullet moving downward into the too tight too soon case mouth for the case mouth to shave lead from the bullet body. If the case mouth is simply closed in against the stationary side of the bullet, no shaving can occur. OTOH, you may smear some lead from the exposed bullet nose with a die that is a gross mismatch to the exposed bullet nose diameter/profile. Depending on the interior profile and degree of taper of your crimping die, you should be able to eliminate this by raising the die slightly to give a less severe crimp. If this doesn’t work and lead still smears from a bullet that is stationary in the case you do indeed have a serious problem with that die.

Green Frog

So... let me describe the order of physical events.

Cases are sized, primed, flared, and charged.
Bullet is hand-seated, part of which is verifying it is started smoothly and easily into the case.
Ram is raised and case begins to enter the Redding die, which is adjusted not to apply any crimp.
As the brass enters the die, the flared case mouth scrapes along the inner diameter of the seating die with an audible and surprisingly loud sound. The bullet has not been touched, and this occurs without a bullet present during testing.
Without completing the stroke and leaving the bullet unseated, the ram is lowered and the brass examined.
Upon examination, the flare on the mouth of the case has been forced inward.

In this scenario there is no shaving because the bullet hasn't moved, the Redding die simply forced the mouth flare inward. However, if you continue the upward stroke, even with the die adjusted so it will not apply a crimp, when the bullet is seated shaving will occur because the inner diameter of the die body has forced the flared mouth inward. Does that make sense?

[Char-Gar]

Every bullet seating die, will remove the flare/bell on it trip upward into the die. There is not thing unusual in this. Nothing at all. Reading your response to Green Frog indicate to me, that your case is contacting the crimp portion of the die at the full raise of the ram. This tells me you just "think" you are not on the crimp, but truly are in the crimp area. Your die may have some kind of profile crimp in it, which is a combo of a taper and roll crimp. The Profile Crimp is a Redding thing and that very well be the way your die is made. If so, your case mouth will hit the taper crimp portion before it hits the roll crimp portion. The solution would be to adjust your die up until there is no kind of inward crimp being placed on the case. Seat the bullets and then crimp in another operation as I previously stated. If this indeed is the case, the case is the operator failing to understand the mechanics of the particular make of die. BTW...I detest profile crimps. I have Redding Profile Crimp dies in every revolver caliber I shoot, but don't use them.

Again, I seriously doubt that the problem is with the Redding die, as they are some of the finest made. That said, any manufacturer of whatever, can make and ship a bad product from time to time. I have had one bad CH die many years ago, where the vent hole was not drilled on the sizing die. I have had Lee stuff that proved to be junk. So, if you are convinced the problem is the die and you are unmovable from that thinking, send the die back to Redding and they will make it right.

I will just add one more thought about the way humans think and then I am done with this thread. People will always find what they are looking for. They won't find what they are not looking for. If somebody thinks that "X" is the problem and not "Y" and "Z", then X will be the problem. You tag line at the bottom of your posts, tells me that you are a data person and not a person who first considers the human equation. Humans and not data have been my stock in trade all my working life and I understand them far better than I understand data or mechanics. Data and mechanics did not create humans, it was the other way around.

Over and out!

[Daekar]

Every bullet seating die, will remove the flare/bell on it trip upward into the die. There is not thing unusual in this. Nothing at all. Reading your response to Green Frog indicate to me, that your case is contacting the crimp portion of the die at the full raise of the ram. This tells me you just "think" you are not on the crimp, but truly are in the crimp area. Your die may have some kind of profile crimp in it, which is a combo of a taper and roll crimp. The Profile Crimp is a Redding thing and that very well be the way your die is made. If so, your case mouth will hit the taper crimp portion before it hits the roll crimp portion. The solution would be to adjust your die up until there is no kind of inward crimp being placed on the case. Seat the bullets and then crimp in another operation as I previously stated. If this indeed is the case, the case is the operator failing to understand the mechanics of the particular make of die. BTW...I detest profile crimps. I have Redding Profile Crimp dies in every revolver caliber I shoot, but don't use them.

Again, I seriously doubt that the problem is with the Redding die, as they are some of the finest made. That said, any manufacturer of whatever, can make and ship a bad product from time to time. I have had one bad CH die many years ago, where the vent hole was not drilled on the sizing die. I have had Lee stuff that proved to be junk. So, if you are convinced the problem is the die and you are unmovable from that thinking, send the die back to Redding and they will make it right.

I will just add one more thought about the way humans think and then I am done with this thread. People will always find what they are looking for. They won't find what they are not looking for. If somebody thinks that "X" is the problem and not "Y" and "Z", then X will be the problem. You tag line at the bottom of your posts, tells me that you are a data person and not a person who first considers the human equation. Humans and not data have been my stock in trade all my working life and I understand them far better than I understand data or mechanics. Data and mechanics did not create humans, it was the other way around.

Over and out!

Well... I guess you can lead a horse to water...

Glad your dies work for you, I hope you never have to deal with the same problem I encountered.

EDIT: I will say, I don't believe that the Redding die is defective, simply unsuited to the purpose for which I was using it. The inner diameter is cut to a size appropriate for the smaller size of jacketed bullets, and I don't doubt that the manufacturer intended it for such use. The quality of the machining is high, and I believe that it probably complies with their dimensional requirements. The issue is that I was trying to use a tool intended for use with jacketed bullets with cast boolits sized larger than the tool was designed to accommodate. I wouldn't want to go back to Redding with the issue because I don't believe the product is non-conforming.... it would be like complaining to Ford that my truck didn't work properly when I put gasoline in its diesel engine.

[alamogunr]

A little off topic but not much. I asked a question awhile back about the difficulty I was having adjusting the seat/crimp die. Several advised seating and crimping in separate steps like the Dillon 550 does.

I have a couple of older die sets(RCBS) for .38Spec/.357Mag. These sets have a spacer that allows using the same settings for both cartridges, ie, .125 difference in case length. I tried the spacer on some .44 Spec. to crimp separately. Works like a charm. Not my solution. I forget who all suggested it(it was prior to yesterday) but it solved my problem.

To make sure that I always have a spacer on hand, I found a short length of brass bar that was only slightly over diameter for the spacer. I don't have a lathe but do have a friend that is in the machining business. I took a sample and the bar to him and told him to get at least 10-12 pcs and toss the leftover. Don't have them yet since it is a "just when you have time" job, but should be fixed up forever.

[Green Frog]

Daekar, I'm in VA too. If you are close enough to me (I'm in Lynchburg) I will try to help you sort your problem in person. Without seeing it for myself, I cannot describe any more than Char-Gar and I already have what seems to be going awry with your seating die. I just can't do any more from your description.

You may send me a PM with contact info if you wish to have me try to address your problem in person. In return I expect plenty of coffee to be available as I do this for you.

Froggie

[GONRA]

GONRA notes how valuable its is for the die manufacturer
to sell 'em in large enuf boxes to accommodate all the extra stuff /
home made tooling / shell holder(s) / nose punches ...
that one usually ends up using on our sophisticated reloading projects.

[Petander]

In fact, what I have found is that the ID of the die is tightly consistent all the way down, so that almost as soon as the brass enters the body of the die at all it is squished back in.

Yes,typical Redding.

I used to load fat cast 9 mm subsonics for a carbine. Bought a Redding micrometer set to get a better set than my old Lee.

I couldn't use the fancy Redding seating die because any flare I put in the case mouth was removed by the seater die right away. Actually, enough flare for a .359 bullet won't even go in the seater. Less flare, it fits in but the whole round gets swaged down.

458 Socom was the same, couldn't fit fat boolits in without some shaving somewhere. I got rid of that caliber, I prefer a 45-70 for those bullets. 500 S&W is so-so because my bullet is only .501.

Redding is good stuff. Our fat boolits just are often too fat for Redding tolerances. Redding makes sure their tools make ammo that chambers in all guns.

[JohnH]

Daekar, I'm a bit late to the conversation here, but my solution to this problem (where it existed) was to get a seating die of the next caliber up and use that for seating the bullet and them crimping with the appropriate die. It's aggravating at times having that extra step, even though I'm running a 5 station progressive (Load Master). There are times I'd like to be able to add a powder check die without having to to go back and crimp in a separate run, but I'd rather deal with baby sitting the powder measure than that. I run a 40 S&W seating die on my 38 Special and 357 Magnum (I have a turrent with complete die sets set up for each. For whatever reason, I dont have this issue with 45 Colt or 45 ACP, but I do run separate dies for seating and crimping. In 44 Special, I'm using a 45 Colt seating die to seat. All these seating dies are Lee, I like the rounded seating stem as it works with a wide range of nose profiles and I've not had any trouble with bullets wanting to seat sideways.

I also recently began using NOE's expanders and they are most excellent additions to my dies. The are made to fit the Lee Universal Expanding Die. I think their name for that tool is a bit misleading as all it does is flare the case mouth. Since the sizing die actually shrinks the case a teensie tad below the diameter for the bullet, an expander is needed to get a proper bullet to case fit for proper pull. I've read that it's possile for an undersize case to actually reduce the diameter of a cast bullet and that may even be so, but I'd be surprised if the ignition pressure didn't resolve that, I've ner had an issue I could say was a result of this, but the NOE expanders really do seem to help the seating. So my tool head set up is sizind die, expanding die, powder measure, seating die, crimping die. Hopes this helps in some small way.