Vintage Cartridge ID Help

[vandeusenps]

Hey guys, I recently won an auction for a few choice rcbs die sets…included in the lot was a bunch of vintage rifle cartridges. One was a 45-75 WCF, a few 50 2-1/2” Sharps, and the guy pictured below. I can’t figure this one out! Some dimensions are shown in the pics, hopefully someone can help me identify what cartridge this is! Second pic from bottom shows the mystery cartridge next to a standard 45-70.

[cwtebay]

44-77 Sharps / Remington?

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[Skipper]

Here's a good reference chart

https://bloodhound.tripod.com/cartridg.htm

[oley55]

No doubt your post will be seen here, but the vintage ammo guys are sure to see your post in the vintage ammo forum.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/for...5-Vintage-Ammo

[vandeusenps]

No doubt your post will be seen here, but the vintage ammo guys are sure to see your post in the vintage ammo forum.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/for...5-Vintage-Ammo

Thanks oley, I will try and move this post!


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[oley55]

I think only Moderators have the magic powers to move a post to a different location.

[vandeusenps]

I think only Moderators have the magic powers to move a post to a different location.

Moderators, please move this post to vintage ammo!


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[Traffer]

The closest thing I could find:
https://www.cartridgecollector.net/1...dutch-beaumont

[Minerat]

Thanks oley, I will try and move this post!


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I moved it for you.

[Tar Heel]

A little more data is needed. What are these dimensions that you have not included?

Attachment 290020

[Tar Heel]

Trying to isolate for you but need more info:

43 Dutch Beaumont M71/78
44-60 Peabody "Creedmore"
44-60 Sharps Necked (44-60 Sharps Remington)
40-90 Peabody
40-348 Winchester
11.15x58 Werndl M77
11.15x58R Spanish Remington
11.15x60R Mauser
11.4x50R Brazilian Comblain M74

and the list continues...

[vandeusenps]

A little more data is needed. What are these dimensions that you have not included?

Attachment 290020

Tar Heel,

Thanks for steering me in the right direction. Here are the measurements, best I could do with a digital caliper:




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[Tar Heel]

Problems:
1. Factory cartridges in-hand seldom match factory spec dimensions. Look at a fired .38-40 or .44-40 case and compare it to a factory fresh case and you will see what I mean.
2. Manufacturing variations in the mid 19th century were immense, especially regarding ammunition.
3. Original cartridge cases hold much greater volume than modern cartridge cases (Balloon head cases for example) so a volumetric measurement is pretty much misleading assuming this cartridge was still manufactured.
4. No observable headstamp.

I am going to give you a list of cartridges it may be and then I will take a stab at which one it is. I am going to guess. You have one more measurement you can take too. What is the overall length of the cartridge? I will provide the C.O.A.L. of my list and you can get the closest.

43 Dutch Beaumont M71/78 at 2.54" OAL
11x52R Netherlands Beuamont aka 43 Dutch Beaumont at 2.54" OAL
11.43x50R Egyptian Remington at 2.73" OAL
11.43x41 Peabody-Martini at 2.32" OAL

My swag is the Peabody-Martini.
The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions, John J. Donnelly, 1987 Stoeger Publishing Co, p983

Given the preponderance of the Martini rifles in the same era, it is therefore most probable this is one of those cartridges.

Unfortunately it is almost always impossible to match up measurements precisely with what "should be" the measurements of a specific cartridge. One in particular that is still aggravating the heck out of me is a cartridge I recovered in a shipwreck named "City of Houston" which is off the NC coast. She sank on 10/23/1878 so the 44 caliber cartridge should be pretty easy to identify. I simply tell folks it's most likely a 44 Russian. That's the closest I can get with the measurements. I say that with 75% assurance.

The most reliable measurements are the actual case length, rim diameter, and neck length. The Shoulder Length is hard to measure but we know it's small, not a long shoulder. The Length to Shoulder (J) can change upon firing the cartridge. Again, look at a .38-40 case.

Sorry I could not nail it with 100% accuracy but I feel confident you have a 11.43x41 Peabody-Martini. Let me know if it measures out to 2.32" or close to it.

[vandeusenps]

Problems:
1. Factory cartridges in-hand seldom match factory spec dimensions. Look at a fired .38-40 or .44-40 case and compare it to a factory fresh case and you will see what I mean.
2. Manufacturing variations in the mid 19th century were immense, especially regarding ammunition.
3. Original cartridge cases hold much greater volume than modern cartridge cases (Balloon head cases for example) so a volumetric measurement is pretty much misleading assuming this cartridge was still manufactured.
4. No observable headstamp.

I am going to give you a list of cartridges it may be and then I will take a stab at which one it is. I am going to guess. You have one more measurement you can take too. What is the overall length of the cartridge? I will provide the C.O.A.L. of my list and you can get the closest.

43 Dutch Beaumont M71/78 at 2.54" OAL
11x52R Netherlands Beuamont aka 43 Dutch Beaumont at 2.54" OAL
11.43x50R Egyptian Remington at 2.73" OAL
11.43x41 Peabody-Martini at 2.32" OAL

My swag is the Peabody-Martini.
The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions, John J. Donnelly, 1987 Stoeger Publishing Co, p983

Given the preponderance of the Martini rifles in the same era, it is therefore most probable this is one of those cartridges.

Unfortunately it is almost always impossible to match up measurements precisely with what "should be" the measurements of a specific cartridge. One in particular that is still aggravating the heck out of me is a cartridge I recovered in a shipwreck named "City of Houston" which is off the NC coast. She sank on 10/23/1878 so the 44 caliber cartridge should be pretty easy to identify. I simply tell folks it's most likely a 44 Russian. That's the closest I can get with the measurements. I say that with 75% assurance.

The most reliable measurements are the actual case length, rim diameter, and neck length. The Shoulder Length is hard to measure but we know it's small, not a long shoulder. The Length to Shoulder (J) can change upon firing the cartridge. Again, look at a .38-40 case.

Sorry I could not nail it with 100% accuracy but I feel confident you have a 11.43x41 Peabody-Martini. Let me know if it measures out to 2.32" or close to it.

Thanks again Tar Heel for your research…just measured oal at 2.38”. I think you may be onto something!


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