358156HP vs. Solid

[Golfswithwolves]

Fellow shooters & loaders- I wonder: for general woods walking (no big bears around, mountain lions and coyotes are possible), I can cast and load either solid or hollow point 358156 bullets for my .357 SP101. I would be interested in hearing opinions from the folks on this site as to which type might be wiser to have in the chambers. I'm not sure if there are real advantages of one over the other, but am willing to learn from experiences of you all. Thanks, Bob

[Targa]

Given the types of critters you might encounter I don’t know that it would matter but I carry hard cast solids when I am in the great outdoors…..similar critter situation in Colorado but our black bears can get a bit of some size to them. Of course black bears our rarely an issue and when they are it is most likely human induced..you know the sleeping in tents next to their food, trashy camp sites, I want to get a better view of that cub etc..etc…

[StrawHat]

With few exceptions, 457122, I don’t bother with HP boolits When I used a 38/357, I used a lot of 358439 and cast about half without the HP pin. I did not see enough difference in the two to merit using the HP pin.

Kevin

[MT Gianni]

I don't think the velocity from a 3 or 4 inch bbl will be enough to expand an HP and drive it deeply. Completely different answer in a 12" contender or 16" Rossi 92.

[rintinglen]

I used to carry two hollowpoints backed up by 4 heavy loaded 358-156's in a M-66, thinking that the HP's would be good for two-legged varmints while the solid-nosed rounds would do for 4 legged ones. I did not have to worry about big bears, nor really anything much over a mountain lion. However, mature reflection said that I would likely not get to choose which adversary I was dealing with, nor when, so I went with anti-personnel HP's. As I was more likely to run into an illegal drug grower than a bear, and a 146 grain JHP was more than adequate for Mountain Lions, that was what I used.

A 358-156 HP would have been great, but back then, the only HP molds I had tried were Lyman SC molds, that quite frankly stink.

[Larry Gibson]

I carry HP'd 358156s in my 357s with magnum loads and my 38 SPLs with +P loads if I'm carrying them for a "potential" or if hunting. If plinking and general shooting at targets or even targets of opportunity then the solids suffice. For the magnum level loads I cast them with 16-1 alloy. In the 38 SPL +P s I cast them of 30-1 alloy. Expansion is excellent, even from the shorter 2 1'2" barrel of my M19.

My experience shooting numerous vermin , deer and other critters has sufficiently convinced me that the HP of a proper HP design and alloy gives much better terminal performance.

[midnight]

The 358156 is my go to bullet. It has shown itself to be my most accurate 357 bullet. Solids are the most used. I like that it has two crimp grooves to make it useful in a wide variety of guns.

Bob

[RJM52]

Just went back to the 357156 bullet after starting with that bullet back in 1970...

Have two of the MP molds, one GC with all the pins and an aluminum solid/plain base for target shooting. Friend also has one of the original Lyman molds for making GC solids instead of using the solid pins with the MP.

Have mainly been loading them in .38 Special case with 6.0 grains of Unique for a .38-44 load. They are running mid-900s in a 649 up to 1150 in a 6" 27 just short of the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman load.

As to which bullets when...HPs work best against soft targets like humans, cougars and coyotes.... If you ran a cast bullet fast enough and not overly soft, the HP will blow off the the tip and the base keep on going... I have not done any test on the 357156 but have on the MP .41 220 Keith in the HP and PentaPoint. At 1100 FPS for the HP 212 and 1180 for the 213 PP they impart massive damage to water jugs and then keep right on going through half a dozen jugs. Only the shank is recovered. JHPs that expand are usually found in the third jug fully expanded.

Bob

[Golfswithwolves]

Thanks all for your helpful and well-thought discussion! Bob

[Forrest r]

FWIW:
A couple years back I did a simple test trying to get an idea of what bullet/powder combo to use in a snubnosed 38spl looking for p+ loads. I used 10 different bullet and 5 different powders loading 10 round of each bullet/max powder combo. I used these bullets in the test along with 1 other bullet not shown
[IMG][/IMG]

Some of those bullets are common, the h&g #51/lyman 358429 & your bullet the lyman 358156.

I shot the test loads over a chronograph @ 10ft while doing accuracy tests @ 25ft on paper. At the end of the day 4 of those 10 bullets kept coming up the highest velocities. The powder didn't matter, they were simply more efficient with some of the loads being 70fps faster with these bullets compared to others. While a single 10-shot string doesn't really mean much by itself. The same thing happed over 50 shots with the same 4 bullets.

These are the 4 bullets & as you can see your 358156 was 1 of them.
[IMG][/IMG]

[curioushooter]

Unless maximum penetration is desired, HPs are much more effective typically. This also means they are more destructive on small game. I do not have a 358156 mold. I do have the similar 358429 which is a bit heavier, lacks gas check, and is longer nosed and the HP cavity is somewhat larger typically. It expands very well almost to the point of pancake-ing out in calibrated gel to the point it hardly penetrates a foot in 38+P and it fragments at 357 mag levels. Tested in a 4" S&W 19-3. The same bullet in solid mode is very good penetrator, going clear through 28" of gel and through a pig's skull at 38+P levels.

[Murphy]

I have both versions of the Thompson #358156, made by Ideal. Hollow points for small game would be fine if that's what makes a person happy. I've not had the opportunity to try the HP version on deer sized game. I have a feeling it would hold together better than the Keith #358429. Several years back, a friend wanted to try the Keith HP's out of a 6" Model 28 S&W. He took a doe high in the back at about 50 yards. The autopsy showed the nose folded open and sheered off in the first few inches, the remaining part continued on through. I decided then I'd not be using it for deer sized game. I have a feeling the Thompson #358156 would have held together much better.

Over the past few decades, we have critters rambling the woods now that weren't back in the mid 90's. Black bear, mountain lions, and if you're down near the river...gators. It's been insane and I never would have believed I'd be seeing this growing up in this part of Oklahoma, but we've got em'. I believe I'd go with the solid version of the #358156. Of course, keeping a speed strip/loader filled with HP's might not hurt anything. Never know what you'll run into and they may be just the ticket.

Murphy

[RJM52]

...gators in Oklahoma?

[Murphy]

...gators in Oklahoma?

Yes sir, far S.E. corner of the state. I'm 15 miles from the Texas state line and roughly 25 from Arkansas. They've been moving north for a good deal over 10 years now. Several 9'-10' footers have been killed. There is a wild life refuge the state of Oklahoma have actually imported some gators to to help increase their number. Why, I have no idea. That refuge is known as Red Slough Wildlife Refuge in McCurtain county Oklahoma.

I have yet to see one personally. I have said more than once, if I see a gator and things are 'right'? There's a good chance you can see it there tomorrow too! May have some flies on it, but I'm gonna do my best to make sure it stays right were I found it.


Murphy

[Boogieman]

Old timers say that before the dams on the Ark. river gators were common up to Ft. Smith

[curioushooter]

I have a feeling it would hold together better than the Keith #358429. Several years back, a friend wanted to try the Keith HP's out of a 6" Model 28 S&W. He took a doe high in the back at about 50 yards. The autopsy showed the nose folded open and sheered off in the first few inches, the remaining part continued on through. I decided then I'd not be using it for deer sized game. I have a feeling the Thompson #358156 would have held together much better.

I share this feeling. I do not have a 358156 or its clones, but I have MP's 359 Hammer in this weight range and with its small pin it holds together MUCH BETTER. The 429s nose walls are very thin. The 429HP is meant for jackrabbits (this is what Keith did with it) and stuff you want to just splat like a coyote or something. While its solid form is indeed an excellent penetrator, however, wont deliver the largest diameter wound. I would never use it for deer or to stun a pig.

[AnthonyB]

There are actually two different Ideal/Lyman Keith HPs. One of mine has the large HP cavity, and another has a ‘stepped’ cavity. Don’t remember which is which, but one in numbered 429 and one is 439. I use the big cavity in 38 Special and the stepped in Magnum loads.
Tony

[MT Gianni]

There are actually two different Ideal/Lyman Keith HPs. One of mine has the large HP cavity, and another has a ‘stepped’ cavity. Don’t remember which is which, but one in numbered 429 and one is 431. I use the big cavity in 38 Special and the stepped in Magnum loads.
Tony

358439 and 358429 HP. The ones I saw had the same pins but with Lyman anything is possible. We are discussing HP's but are ignoring and assuming that pin diameter and depth are the same in all instances. I don't think that's right, but that the numbers are the only commonality.

[Wayne Smith]

Frankly, I load my .38 a hollow point and a solid point alternally - thus two shots will do what is necessary.

[RJM52]

"I have yet to see one personally. I have said more than once, if I see a gator and things are 'right'? There's a good chance you can see it there tomorrow too! May have some flies on it, but I'm gonna do my best to make sure it stays right were I found it."

...Mr. Murphy...I think that is very kind and the right thing to do... It is my understanding from my friends in Idaho that they do the same for wolves....which are simply alligators with fur...

Bob