Higher rate of shot flyers with powder coating? What is your experience?

[reedap1]

Today I was testing some powder charge weights with Alliant American Select in my 45 Colt Ruger Bisley. I was testing the loads at 25 yards looking for a plinking load with a 255-grain commercial cast bullet that I previously have used with their commercial traditional lube. The load that I have been using for many years would consistently shoot 6 shots into about 1.5-1.75 inches at 25 yards.

In an effort to avoid cleaning lead from the barrel and the fact that almost everything I shoot for the past 2-3 years are powder coated bullets, I took some of these commercial traditional lubed bullets, stripped off the lube by cleaning them in a solvent, and boiling in water and then powder coating. Using these powder-coated bullets and various charges of American Select to find an accurate plinker I noted a significantly higher number of flyers in my testing. By that I mean the bulk of the 6 shot group would be close and consistent and then a flyer would spoil it. Of course, it could be my shooting, my 67-year eyes, and hard to see iron sights, etc but I have been shooting handguns off the bench for many years and have a pretty good technique I believe.

None of these groups, in reality, would dissuade me from loading them for practice and plinking but it is sure nice to have an accurate group to count on for playing.

So my question is simply this-

Have any Forum members noted that they get a larger number of flyers when shooting PC bullets versus traditional lubing? I would be interested in any insight from other members. Thanks in advance,

Paul

[243winxb]

From a Ranson Rest, coated are not as accurate as casted /lubed. If you want to search. https://www.bullseyeforum.net/

[Super Sneaky Steve]

In my 308 which I fire at long range and for hunting I stick to traditional lube. It works better in my rifle when compared to PC.

With pistols it doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

[charlie b]

And I found little difference in my .308 between PC and regular lube. Most of my loads are 1 1/2MOA or less out to 300yd, 2MOA out to 500yd.

What I have found is that weight sorting the bullets is essential for consistent accuracy. My best groups are when all the bullets are within a 0.3gn range, and, they are the heavier bullets from a casting session.

[turtlezx]

check and see if the flyer is coming from the same cylinder

[mtgrs737]

The same chamber in the cylinder, is what I think turtlezx meant.

[Kraschenbirn]

From my (limited) experience, I've come to believe that it often depends upon the gun, itself. For example: Two of my 45-70s...a Highwall and a RB...both have 30" barrels with 1-18 twist, both with Lee Shaver sights. Using smokeless loads with the same boolit, the Pedersoli RB groups BETTER with PC'd boolits while the Taylor & Co Highwall prefers lubed boolits by a measureable margin...consistently an inch or so smaller groups at 200 yds.

So far as 'flyers', I seriously doubt they can be blamed entirely of PC. In the last year I've fired close to a thousand PC'd boolits (Arsenal 30-188PC) from my heavy-barrel Savage M10 and can't recall a significant number of unexpected 'flyers'; almost every one that I can recall, I knew were going to be out of the group as soon as the trigger broke.

Bill

[DHDeal]

I have not seen this myself. Not going to comment on whether PC is more accurate than plain lubed as each persons technique/loads/casting/coating is different. My go to accurate revolvers shoot just about everything good and they all wear optics of some sort. My 55ish yoa eyes don't like iron sights as much as they used to and I simply don't shoot them as well as I used to.

I one time tried to strip old lube from some bullets I didn't want to waste. I was able to do it but the final product was not as good as if I'd have started with fresh cast bullets. I question how well the PC was cured to the surface of the bullets after boiling them and the possibility of incomplete adhesion. You also mentioned having to get lead out of you barrel after shooting lubed bullets. You have a few things going on here. Not young eyes and iron sights (I'm there), leading with conventional lubed commercial bullets (sizing for your revolver?), you cleaning off old lube from those conventional lubed commerial bullets and applying PC (sizing for your revolver and/or incomplete adhesion).

Not picking on you here I assure you and I do understand sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. You mentioned you have been shooting PC bullets for some time. Did you get flyers with those bullets? Were they also bullets you striped the lube from and then PC'd?

[reedap1]

DHDeal,

Thank you sir for the feedback and comments. Not feeling picked on at all, really do appreciate the input. Some further clarifications on my comments:

* Yep, eyes aren't what they used to be and I do find it harder to shoot iron sights. In this case on two of the revolvers I was talking about in my original post were also shot by a (younger) friend and we saw the same approximate level of flyers, I'd say about 8-10% of the shots when he shot them. When I shoot for groups off the bench with my pistols I use an "eye dot" which is essentially a peep sight type device that you stick on your glasses. Shooting test loads with jacketed bullets I definitely shoot better (tested with and without) with the target dot. I agree that it gets harder to shoot accurately with age...that sucks!

*I also shot some loads, PC and traditional lube, in my Taurus 44 Mag that has a 2x scope on it and I see the same level of flyers with PC bullets. I think the flyers are real in my PC'd bullets which may speak to my process.

*On the bullets that I stripped off the traditional lube-these have been soaked in Xylene and then boiled and finally washed rinsed with Dawn soap. I feel that the original lube has been removed but of course, there is always the possibility that the bullets are not as "clean" as fresh cast. I have only tried PC on fresh cast bullets 2X so far because I have huge stocks of bullets that I cast and lubed over the years to build a supply. In my PC process (Smoke's powder, shake, and bake a full 20 minutes at a confirmed 400 degrees) the bullets pass the multiple smash test, PC is not removed by any typical solvents and even tried heating the PC'd bullets with a torch only to see the lead melt out and the PC basically unharmed. I feel that my bullets are properly coated...however I completely agree that the best way is to cast them and PC immediately.

*I've been seeing flyers ever since I started PC coating about 2 years ago. Again none of this lack of accuracy is going to deter me from loading my plinking and practice loads. It is just that when I shoot traditional lubed bullets (commercial purchases or my own cast lubricated with Lyman Orange) I can get loads that shoot very accurately, on the order of 1" six-shot groups at 25 years off the bench. But I do see accuracy fall off after about 50-75 rounds of traditional lubed bullets and while I may be an anal-retentive gun cleaner I stop and clean the barrels to try to get the accuracy back. I hate cleaning and was looking to PC to reduce that.

*None of this going to deter me from continuing to PC and I am looking at my reloading procedure to make sure that I may have to revise it after many years of loading...for example flaring the case more with PC bullets.

Thank you for the feedback, I really do value the comments.

Paul

[dswancutt]

Could it possibly be a lack of uniformity of the coating? I new at this so I am just guessing.

[charlie b]

I guess I should ask, how big is the group without the flier and how far out is the flier?

There are PC techniques that may affect the accuracy, especially when it comes to the base of the bullet. For my rifle I use almost all gas checked bullets. GC seated and bullet sized before PC, then sized again after PC. I wipe the PC off the bottom of the bullet before baking.

I find I have accuracy issues (fliers) when there is too much PC on the bullets. Plain base bullets will give issues if the based are not evenly coated, ie, 'blobs' on one edge. 'Batch' coating bullets in a basket will cause some base edge flaws at times. I've not had good luck with bevel base bullets and PC but I may have just had too much PC on them.

As to number of bullets before losing accuracy. My .308 barrel (Savage factory heavy barrel) is picky about several things and fouling is one of them. It does best after 10 shots through the barrel and falls off somewhere after 100, ie, it goes from under 1 1/2MOA to 2 MOA.

[Rapidrob]

Powder coating the BASE of the bullet is critical. If the coating is not consistent in thickness from edge to edge of the bullet base, you will get fliers.
As the bullet leave the case,and there is inconsistent thickness of the base coating, the propelling gas will vent out around the thinner coating first and push the bullet in that direction as it enters the bore or forcing cone. Then the bullet leaves the muzzle and it may have damage from entering the bore/forcing cone to the bullet body/base and again vents gas at an angle.
There goes your accuracy for that shot.
The other thing I've seen happen is the powder coating is really slick. And the Pistols rifling is very shallow. The bullet "skids" over the rifling and does not get fully engraved by the rifling and flies off the bulls eye by several inches. This problem is is increased if you "push" the bullet close to FMJ loads. A different brand of PC solved this problem
I've had both these problems happen over the decades and took action to correct them. Problems gone now.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot many thousand pc bullets and 100s of thousands of coventionaly lubed bullets. Ill say this. Pcing a bullet changes the bullet. Loads that were good with conventional lube might be less accurate or more accurate. Its about like changing bullet brands or powder. When you get a load for a pc bullet worked up if your getting flyers i doubt if its the pc causing it. Ive never seen that. Now like i said your one inch group might now be 2 inch or a 1/2 inch and you made need to start over with load development. But if its flyers its your gun or your bullets or (dont take offense) you. Its not pc if its done right. Now if its not cured and your getting pc pealing off then you could possibly again blame your pc process.

[DHDeal]

I didn't think to ask how you do the PC thing. I stand every bullet up on my pan and silicone mat. My bases are flat and coated.

You mentioned when you shot those bullets before they were PC'd and they shot well but leaded. That's where the "fit" comes in. Well that and/or hardness of the alloy. The hardest alloy I use is 2/3 COWW and 1/3 soft lead. The smallest bullet I use, per revolver, is a bullet that will just fall through and I prefer one that has to be pushed through (pushed through, not beaten through).

The only revolver I have that I've ever seen one of my cast bullets lead the barrel is a FA97 in 327 Federal. I have shot a few conventionally lubed and sized bullets in it before and it is a picky SOB. Some revolvers are cantankerous but usually it comes down to measurements unless there is an obvious problem with the gun.

[Charlie Horse]

If I take a conventionally lubed bullet/gun/load combination that shoots good, and I take that same bullet and powder coat it, I will get much worse consistency/accuracy. I believe the problem comes from the additional sizing caused by the powder coating vs tumble lube I use.
I have yet to find a 38 caliber lead bullet that shoots good out of my rifle after it has been powder coated and sized to .358.
Any 9mm powder coated bullet I've tried out of the same rifle shoots like a champ. Even the ones down in the 100 grain range.
I believe over-sizing is the problem.
My 9mm bullets drop out of the mold at around .357.
Some of my 38 caliber bullets drop around .360.
Add a thou or two of powder coating to those fat bullet, then size them, and I might as well be throwing rocks.
I haven't tried sizing before and after powder coating as some have suggested. Probably because I have found something that works. But I should try that, just for an experiment.

[BNE]

Hmmmm. I always seem to get one flyer per round no matter what pistol I am shooting!

I have not noticed a difference with powder coated vs non. I have not shot enough rifle to speak about that yet. If I do my part, I’m able to make them all touch each other.

[charlie b]

....I have yet to find a 38 caliber lead bullet that shoots good out of my rifle after it has been powder coated and sized to .358.
Any 9mm powder coated bullet I've tried out of the same rifle shoots like a champ. Even the ones down in the 100 grain range....

There's your answer and you are right. Too much sizing.

[Dragonheart]

Working up an accurate load takes a lot of time and effort, but one thing is a must if your results are going to mean anything and that is consistency. I shoot mostly handguns and I use a Ransom Rest to take out the human element and a chronograph to aid in consistency.

Even so everything makes a difference, the type of powder, the slightest variation in the charge, the primer, the case, the case length, the bullet size, shape, weight and seating depth. A variation in any of these and you have a larger than ideal group. My point is laying the blame for fliers on PC alone is debatable.

[Charlie Horse]

Working up an accurate load takes a lot of time and effort, but one thing is a must if your results are going to mean anything and that is consistency. I shoot mostly handguns and I use a Ransom Rest to take out the human element and a chronograph to aid in consistency.

Even so everything makes a difference, the type of powder, the slightest variation in the charge, the primer, the case, the case length, the bullet size, shape, weight and seating depth. A variation in any of these and you have a larger than ideal group. My point is laying the blame for fliers on PC alone is debatable.

I agree. I blame it on over sizing. My problem now is finding molds that are a little bit undersized for the caliber. Wish I had a 22 mold that dropped linotype bullets at around .223". Both my molds drop them at .225-6". I'm not even going to try powder coating those.