357 Magnum with Heavy Boolits

[Daekar]

***This is your notification that it is VERY likely that some of these loads, if you manage to fit them in a normal 357 magnum chambered firearm, will absolutely blow up your gun and injure you. They were developed in, and should only ever be used in, firearms with actions known to be strong enough to handle high pressure rifle cartridges. Please do not try these in your K-frame and become fodder for anti-gun propaganda on the Huffington Post spam feed. If you have questions about "357+P" loads, please ask!***

One of my grand plans for the past few years has been to shoot heavy subsonic projectiles out of an Encore with a suppressor. So far I'm not doing too badly: Encore? Check. Threaded barrel? Check. Heavy boolit mold? Check, an Accurate 35-245P. I am currently waiting for my suppressor to be approved, so in the meantime I'm exploring what other potential this mold has. Turns out it's quite a lot, with the right powder.

Since my previous testing with duplex loads had been conducted with my Henry H015 and I just got a scope put on it, I figured I'd keep going with it - I think it's more representative of what folks might see out of the lever guns in 357 mag that are so popular. For this testing the Accurate 35-245P was cast out of a relatively hard scrap alloy, sized to .358", powdercoated, and sized to .358 again. Here are my first round of results. Please forgive my customary "bad / OK / Good" accuracy rating, without a shooting bench I am not in a situation to shoot for groups that would be meaningful outside my own backyard.

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle
OAL: 1.690"

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Lil'Gun (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Accurate 35-245P	5.5	0.0	1070	????
Accurate 35-245P	5.7	0.0	1081	Good	I will probably use this as a standard subsonic load.
Accurate 35-245P	6.0	0.0	1112	????
Accurate 35-245P	6.5	0.0	1148	????	Possibly a bit stiffer extraction, probably a good max load.
Accurate 35-245P	7.0	0.0	1196	????	Slightly stiff extraction
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	8.5	1197	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	9.0	1264	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	9.5	1316	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	10.0	1334	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	10.5	1372	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	11.0	1416	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	11.5	1473	Good	This produced the only ragged hole group I've ever gotten with this gun.
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.0	1483	????	Mild deformation around firing pin strike. MAX LOAD.
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.5	1563	????	Deformation around firing pin strike, harder to break action. DO NOT USE.

Call me pessimistic, but I wasn't expecting to knock on the door to 1500fps with this boolit before I became uncomfortable with proceeding further. My alloy was dropping from the mold at about 237gr, so that puts the muzzle energy for the 11.5gr Lil'Gun load at 1147ft*lbs. I would wager that performance will cover many of the needs of deer hunters in the mountains of the eastern USA. Comparing to the figures measured by Ballistics By the Inch, it's slightly more oomph than a 240gr 44 Mag out of a 12" revolver barrel but with a better drag coefficient.

My Encore has a fast-shooting 12" barrel, so I'm looking forward to working some of these up for it. Will come back with more when I've got it!

EDIT:
Threw together some test loads yesterday with the Encore. Performance was better than expected. Never got sticky extraction or anything, but did get uncomfortable going higher. There is nothing that lives in the eastern USA that I wouldn't be comfortable using some of these loads to hunt at ranges which are practical with a red dot on a handgun.

Gun: T/C Encore, 12" MGM barrel, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle
OAL: 1.690"

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Lil'Gun (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	7.8	1080	Good
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	8.0	1122	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	8.5	1173	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	10.1	1340	????	This charge recommended by Badman Bullets to achieve subsonic velocity with their 230gr WC
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	10.5	1321	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	11.0	1359	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	11.5	1393	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.0	1414	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.5	1448	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	13.0	1480	????	Lightly compressed
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	13.5	1562	????	Compressed. Slightly-flatter primer, change in dynamic V/C. MAX LOAD.

[358429]

May I ask for pictures of the gun and loaded ammunitions?

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[Outpost75]

In the Encore you are limited by its slow rifling twist. In my .38 S&W rook rifle I had John Taylor use a 1:10" twist 9mm Parabellum barrel and it is accurate and stable at 720 fps with Accurate 36-240H using 3 grains of AutoComp.

[Daekar]

May I ask for pictures of the gun and loaded ammunitions?

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Sure!

Here's the Henry H015 Single Shot:




Here's the Encore with a barrel by MGM:



And here are the boolits. From left to right, cartridge loaded with Missouri 158gr SWC, Missouri 125gr TC, Accurate 35-245P, then PC'd and bare Accurate 35-245P, then PC'd and bare Accurate 36-159S, then PC'd Lee 358-158 RF, then Missouri 125gr TC.


I am obviously one of the heathens that doesn't often tumble their brass, just realized how obvious that was when I was looking at the photo... *sheepish*

Between these two guns, I am totally a single-shot convert. Any guns I buy from here on out will be single-shot by default unless function requires them to be otherwise. I love the idea of someday getting a 357 Maximum with a rifle-length barrel and seeing how hard you can push these 245gr boolits, I'm betting you could get significantly more velocity because the powder space with the same bullet seating depth would be increased by a significant percentage.

[358429]

That is the coolest pistol that I have ever seen!!!!

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[Daekar]

In the Encore you are limited by its slow rifling twist. In my .38 S&W rook rifle I had John Taylor use a 1:10" twist 9mm Parabellum barrel and it is accurate and stable at 720 fps with Accurate 36-240H using 3 grains of AutoComp.

Hmmm... I have never tried to take the velocity that low in the Encore. It's got a 1:16 twist, I think, and I have seen good accuracy out to 50 yards or so (the further I bothered testing) with velocities in the 1080fps range with this boolit. It might destabilize out at 100 yards, but I don't have a 100 yard stretch I can shoot so I'm not sure. Not that I would be able to hit anything but the broad side of a barn at 100 yards with a pistol...

[Daekar]

That is the coolest pistol that I have ever seen!!!!

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It was a splurge. I have to say, it has turned out better than I'd hoped, and it is pretty cool looking, the guys at MGM do some very fine work!

I'm usually recoil-shy in general, but I get a real kick out of shooting "bubba's pissin' hot handloads" in this thing, 30-30 level energy without breaking a sweat or showing pressure signs. The muzzle brake really makes a difference, but the thing is LOUD, lol.

[358429]

It was a splurge. I have to say, it has turned out better than I'd hoped, and it is pretty cool looking, the guys at MGM do some very fine work!

I'm usually recoil-shy in general, but I get a real kick out of shooting "bubba's pissin' hot handloads" in this thing, 30-30 level energy without breaking a sweat or showing pressure signs. The muzzle brake really makes a difference, but the thing is LOUD, lol.

How much does the spiral fluting on the barrel help with recoil reduction counteracting gunpowder induced torque and all that by redistributing aerodynamic forces

Everything about that gun looks so very good. Small electronic dot sight is perfect for that !! I've gone into gun shops asking for something that, basically looks just like your pictures. And they look at me like I'm asking them to eat baby birds that are still alive.

If that was mine I would be so very interested in testing out powdercoated semi-wadcutter flat nose and swc hollowpoints (172 grain and 155 grain bullets)(they load loong for extra powder capacity): one batch loaded with 3 grains of red dot/tightgroup/etc fast powder and another batch loaded with 15.5 grain h110/win 296. (Or 12-14 grains Imr4227)(sloow powders).

I don't remember if you mentioned that in the other postings you made, have you tried the rifle powders from the ported handgun?


What do I have to do to get a pistol like that??

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[358429]

It was a splurge. I have to say, it has turned out better than I'd hoped, and it is pretty cool looking, the guys at MGM do some very fine work!

I'm usually recoil-shy in general, but I get a real kick out of shooting "bubba's pissin' hot handloads" in this thing, 30-30 level energy without breaking a sweat or showing pressure signs. The muzzle brake really makes a difference, but the thing is LOUD, lol.

"30-30 level energy without breaking a sweat"

It would be really interesting if you had a second one of these to match this one except chambered 30-30 or 308 Winchester

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[Daekar]

How much does the spiral fluting on the barrel help with recoil reduction counteracting gunpowder induced torque and all that by redistributing aerodynamic forces

Everything about that gun looks so very good. Small electronic dot sight is perfect for that !! I've gone into gun shops asking for something that, basically looks just like your pictures. And they look at me like I'm asking them to eat baby birds that are still alive.

If that was mine I would be so very interested in testing out powdercoated semi-wadcutter flat nose and swc hollowpoints (172 grain and 155 grain bullets)(they load loong for extra powder capacity): one batch loaded with 3 grains of red dot/tightgroup/etc fast powder and another batch loaded with 15.5 grain h110/win 296. (Or 12-14 grains Imr4227)(sloow powders).

I don't remember if you mentioned that in the other postings you made, have you tried the rifle powders from the ported handgun?


What do I have to do to get a pistol like that??

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Yeah, the local gun shop really didn't get what I was trying to build, pretty sure the guy who owns it thinks I'm nuts. He gave me good advice on the reddot though, I'm really happy with the model he suggested.

I don't actually have any SWC molds, but the commercially-cast ones I bought from Missouri gave me a shotgun pattern when pushed hard. I think a properly-fitted one with PC would do better, but I don't have any way to find that out. I can report that they will seat long, though... I was able to use them with a OAL of 1.830, and pushed them to 2141 fps average using 19.8gr of Lil'Gun without pressure signs in the pistol. Like I said, though, that particular boolit gave me appallingly-poor accuracy at everything over 1000fps.

First you have to get your hands on an Encore frame... harder now, since T/C isn't currently manufacturing. I ordered the frame separately from anything else, because my understanding is that the condition of the receiver upon first sale defines what you are allowed to do with it in terms of changing back and forth between pistol and rifle. At some point I'll get a rifle barrel and be able to switch it back and forth with a stock. Anyway, once you get the frame and grip, it's time to hit up Match Grade Machine for a custom barrel and scope rail. Mine is 12", with one of the smallest scope rails they sell for the reddot. The muzzle brake is threaded on, so I can spin it off and replace it with the suppressor when it finally arrives. Then it's just getting the reddot and sighting in your favorite loads.

It's not the most efficient way to assemble a gun, from a cost perspective, but it does allow you to get exactly what you want, especially if you order custom wood furniture.

EDIT: Here's the 158gr SWC when seated over a charge of Lil'Gun. Funky looking cartridge, but totally safe in the Encore. Wouldn't seat in the Henry.

[Daekar]

"30-30 level energy without breaking a sweat"

It would be really interesting if you had a second one of these to match this one except chambered 30-30 or 308 Winchester

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I would get it in 30-30 between those two, because I'm a rimmed cartridge snob now!

Honestly, the 357 Maximum would probably be a better choice for me because I already have dies, sizing bushings, etc, and it can lay out some serious velocity OR take some really heavy boolits... and you can still use carbide sizing, no shoulder to mess with, etc. When I get around to buying one of those, I'll probably buy this or this mold to go with it, straight wall cases with pointy boolits look awesome.

[Meatpuppet]

Go for the 357 Max! Especially with the suppressor. Attached are photos of my G2 Contender, 10" MGM barrel, Pistol Brace, Liberty Infinity-X suppressor and Trijicon Accupoint scope. Also photos of 315gr powdercoated and swaged boolets poking along at 1050fps.

[Daekar]

Go for the 357 Max! Especially with the suppressor. Attached are photos of my G2 Contender, 10" MGM barrel, Pistol Brace, Liberty Infinity-X suppressor and Trijicon Accupoint scope. Also photos of 315gr powdercoated and swaged boolets poking along at 1050fps.

Nice! Where did you get the mold for those? Have you tried pushing them with regular magnum cases? I was wondering if there was enough case capacity to get them to high subsonic velocity.

EDIT: Have you shot for groups at 100 yards, and if so, are you comfortable sharing them? Don is right, it would be great to have some information on how well things stay stable with a 1:16 twist at subsonic velocities.

[Daekar]

Threw together some test loads yesterday with the Encore. Performance was better than expected. Never got sticky extraction or anything, but did get uncomfortable going higher. There is nothing that lives in the eastern USA that I wouldn't be comfortable using some of these loads to hunt at ranges which are practical with a red dot on a handgun.

Gun: T/C Encore, 12" MGM barrel, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle
OAL: 1.690"

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Lil'Gun (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	7.8	1080	Good
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	8.0	1122	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	8.5	1173	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	10.1	1340	????	This charge recommended by Badman Bullets to achieve subsonic velocity with their 230gr WC
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	10.5	1321	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	11.0	1359	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	11.5	1393	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.0	1414	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.5	1448	????
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	13.0	1480	????	Lightly compressed
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	13.5	1562	????	Compressed. Slightly-flatter primer, change in dynamic V/C. MAX LOAD.

[dverna]

Interesting thread.

I am also partial to single shots and the .38/.357/.357Max. But I am not a fan of break open rifles as I find them awkward off the bench and a lot of my shooting is off a bench. Nearly got a baby rolling block about a year ago but it was not drilled and tapped for a scope and a scope is a must for me.

I like your ability to interchange a muzzle break and suppressor on the pistol.

It would be interesting to see some groups at 100 yards with that heavy bullet. Outpost made a good point about twist rate and it something to consider on a custom build...depending on what the purpose of the rifle would be. (I had a 1-10 twist barrel on a M52 pistol and it made a difference shooting low velocity 148 HBWC's.) If I ever built a rifle, the lightest bullet I would use is the 158 SWC for varmints and plinking and for short range deer the Hornady 200 gr FTX.

The cost of and hassle of a suppressor is an obstacle for me. I would love to be able to plink without having to don hearing protection. The thread by Outpost on his rook rifle is a good read, but it did not check all the boxes for me....still a lot of good information to be gleaned from it.

[Daekar]

Interesting thread.

I am also partial to single shots and the .38/.357/.357Max. But I am not a fan of break open rifles as I find them awkward off the bench and a lot of my shooting is off a bench. Nearly got a baby rolling block about a year ago but it was not drilled and tapped for a scope and a scope is a must for me.

I like your ability to interchange a muzzle break and suppressor on the pistol.

It would be interesting to see some groups at 100 yards with that heavy bullet. Outpost made a good point about twist rate and it something to consider on a custom build...depending on what the purpose of the rifle would be. (I had a 1-10 twist barrel on a M52 pistol and it made a difference shooting low velocity 148 HBWC's.) If I ever built a rifle, the lightest bullet I would use is the 158 SWC for varmints and plinking and for short range deer the Hornady 200 gr FTX.

The cost of and hassle of a suppressor is an obstacle for me. I would love to be able to plink without having to don hearing protection. The thread by Outpost on his rook rifle is a good read, but it did not check all the boxes for me....still a lot of good information to be gleaned from it.

Oooh, be still my heart, I would love to have a baby rolling block in 357! If it came with high-quality aperture sights and nice lines.... *wistful sigh* The money is going to other things right now, but someday. If you get your hands on one I would love to hear about it.

Hopefully Meatpuppet has access to a shooting bench and has some groups they can share. If 315gr is stable with a 1:16 twist, then there is no doubt that 245gr would be. FWIW, according to this web calculator, both should be more than stable enough... but you know, sometimes the numbers don't match reality.

I used to feel that way about the suppressor, and if things hadn't changed I wouldn't have considered getting one. There are a few companies that will really streamline the process for you though - they do the paperwork, take care of your fingerprints, it's really a nice experience. They can't speed up the ATF processing time, but everything else was relatively easy. If that's something you think you would really enjoy, I encourage you to take a look. Everyone I know who has one says that it wasn't too hard to get and they are absolutely tickled to death with the experience of using one.

I'll have to look at Outpost's rook rifle thread, more information is always good.

[Lonegun1894]

Go for the 357 Max! Especially with the suppressor. Attached are photos of my G2 Contender, 10" MGM barrel, Pistol Brace, Liberty Infinity-X suppressor and Trijicon Accupoint scope. Also photos of 315gr powdercoated and swaged boolets poking along at 1050fps.

Mind if I ask what grip and brace you have on your G2? I currently have a KAK brace that I was thinking about putting on mine, but that folding brace of yours would be so much more compact.

[Outpost75]

My .38 S&W "Lettuce Protector" was intended for short, garden ranges, so has only simple open sights. It will stay in the X-ring of a B8 repair center at 25 yards, in the ten ring at 50 yards, and in the aiming black at 100 yards if I raise the step elevator. Making gong music standing at 100 yards with an 8-inch steel is fun.

[Meatpuppet]

I cast the Accurate Mold 34-310Z and the 35-300P. Powdercoated and swaged to .358 in BT Sniper's point form die. Gas checks made no difference in accuracy so I leave them off. If I start with 1050fps at the muzzle. I get 2 inch groups at 75 yards all day long using 10.5gr of VV N110. The MGM chamber allows me to seat to 2.2"oal. I also have an MGM 16" 1-14 twist that shoots fine as well, but they rounds are supersonic at the muzzle with the longer barrel and I suspect the rounds slowing down through the transonic range affect its accuracy because it does not group as well at 75 and 100 yards as the 10" barrel (it is a tack-driver with fast 187gr and 210gr projectiles. I'm looking for my target photos but there was no yawing at 100 yards with either barrel.

My Frankengun:
T/C Contender G2
MGM 10" (1-10 twist from a chunk of barrel MGM had just cut off one of thier projects)
Sharps Brothers Carbon Fiber Grip/Stock
Sig MPX Folding Stock
Trijicon Accupoint TR24 1-4 scope
Liberty Infiniti-X Suppressor

Still looking for the 315gr target photos, but here are some when I was was working up 357 Maximum deer loads with 182gr jacketed projectiles. They are swaged from 9mm cases with a soft lead core. I ended up with just under 2000fps and 2000ft-lb of energy. Enough for deer and minimal recoil.

[Daekar]

Our own Meatpuppet reached out to me and offered to provide some heavy boolits for me to test in my magnum cases with the 1:16 twist barrel. I gratefully accepted the offer, but I was completely surprised when they arrived, they make my efforts look poor by comparison! Even the packaging was great, with each type of boolit neatly organized into groups. I hadn't yet made the effort to setup a way to measure accuracy from my Encore at anything beyond standard pistol ranges, but now I'm going to have to get on it! Thought I'd post some pictures of what he sent, they're too pretty not to share.