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Thread: Cast Boolit Effects on Game

  1. #41
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    What is sporting is up to the one doing it. As long as it is a humane kill. 500 plus shots are not for me. Yes I have shot deer at 600 using a BPCR. Do I want to do it again? No. To me sport hunting involves getting close. I mean kissing close. Do I think the people who want to shoot 500 plus are wrong? No it just is not for me.
    Steve

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petander View Post
    would not hesitate to use my cast Applegate FN 470 grain 45-70 load on bear. But we have these laws here, an EXPANDING bullet is mandatory for all game and cast is classified as solid.
    Well.. that is ignorance. Lead can be a solid AND expanding. I wonder if anyone who wrote that rule looked at the composition of MOST expanding jacketed bullets... since MOST have lead cores. Besides.. I wonder what a lead hollowpoint would be classified as?

    In any event.. expanding or not.. looks like finland over the next 5 years.. or less will be removing ALL lead from hunting... so.. they better re classify what is a monolithic solid or not.. or yall better get used to eating fragmented zinc or bismuth in your meat when it replaces lead.

    read here:

    https://metsastajaliitto.fi/en/uutis...ishing-weights

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    ... yall better get used to eating fragmented zinc or bismuth in your meat when it replaces lead.
    At the risk of appearing to be stalking you, Soundguy (honestly, I'm not), I gotta comment on this notion.

    This is the exact same strategy the anti-gunners used about 10 years ago, when they set out to ban all lead ammo (and I believe they succeeded in California). They claimed that when game animals are hit with bullets containing lead, the lead bullet fragments into a bajillion pieces and (somehow) that lead goes everywhere throughout the animal, kinda like X-rays or gamma rays, and no matter how well you try to fish it out when butchering the animal, lead gets through and goes into your food. Or supposedly.

    Then they concocted some "studies" to "prove" that hunters who consumed wild game had higher lead levels in their blood than those who didn't eat wild game.

    The only problem is that they "cherry picked" their data, and lost in the results -- and only very rarely reported by the anti-gun, anti-hunting media -- was the fact that the kids in their "study" who ate NO wild game actually had higher lead levels in their blood than kids who regularly ate deer, etc. OOPS!

    Point is, it's not hard to keep bullet fragments out of your food, whether they're lead, zinc, bismuth or unobtainium -- and the notion that hunters are POISONING THEIR KIDS WITH LEAD!!! is fake news BS concocted to serve an agenda to ban lead bullets, plain and simple. If it's deer, you don't use the meat near where the bullet passed through, which isn't difficult since (with j-bullets at least) the lead-tainted meat is generally a bloodshot mess, and you'd have to be mighty hungry to eat it. As for small game killed with lead shot, if I'm not mistaken, even if you swallow a few pellets, they won't elevate the lead in your blood much because the particles are too big -- it's the tiny fragments with lots of surface area that you want to avoid (like the powdered lead oxide in old paints).

    I suspect that we bullet casters inhale and swallow far more lead in our casting activities than even somebody who eats nothing except lead-shot wild game...which may be one reason (some) hunters in the study mentioned above had higher blood lead levels than the general population...
    Last edited by Buck Shot; 09-23-2021 at 11:53 AM.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    I prefer to hunt with cast for big game, but sometimes I choose jacketed. Deer an an ideal cast proposition for me. They aren't that hard to kill and I usually can get close enough that the extra accuracy I get from jacketed at longer ranges (150+ yards) doesn't matter. I also appreciate the fact that cast tends to result in less lost meat, since I have to get in a lottery for deer tags and generally only get one a year (and for 3 years running I cannot even get a rifle tag). The last 3 were with cast (1 in 30-06, 2 with .530 round ball) and at reasonable ranges I have no problems with the effectiveness of cast on deer. Heck the two round ball were iffy shot placement (to far back/liver and a Texas heart shot) and the deer didn't go far or require another shot.

    Then there are times I choose jacketed. I will be hunting pronghorn and elk this year. Pronghorn are lightly constructed animals, but hard to get close to. I will not be surprised if any shot I take this year is beyond 200 yards. Elk are another matter. I need my bullet to be all it can be on a much tougher animal and ranges could be beyond 300 yards. Partitions in a 30-06 are all I want to use. Are there potential situations where a cast bullet could be used on either of these animals? Sure, but I could not get those tags.
    When you care enough to send the very best, send an ounce of lead.

  5. #45
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    I don't consider hunting as "sport". I never really cared for that term but I applaud the ethics that evolved from "sportsmen".

    Hunting is a real thing in a world where real things are getting ever more scarce. It is a connection to what we are at a very old level. It is a reminder of what we were.

    Some say "a gun is a tool" maybe for them but for me a gun, especially a hunting gun, is much more than a shovel or a wrench. It is an instrument of the ritual that connects me to my roots and the circle of life that we all are part of. Holding a warm heart in your hand will never be a "sport".

    Like any ritual how the result is achieved is important. The journey is as important as the destination. If the objective is a dead critter, then snares, bait, poison, or spotlights can brig about the result far more efficiently.

    How the critter dies is important. I once heard ethics described as " doing the right thing when no one would know that you did it".

    Ethics are deeply personal. I have acquaintances who go to the Dakotas and shoot prairie dogs. I have seen video they made. It showed many examples of excellent marksmanship. What they were doing was perfectly legal, welcomed by the landowner, and probably beneficial to the ecosystem. I choose not to do it.

    I am unapologetically a meat hunter. If it is legal and in range and I will eat it I will kill it. I don't "harvest" a critter. I kill them
    Taking a life is not like pulling up a carrot. It should never be trivialized. The critters i kill are all going to die. As am I. I hope to give them as painless a death as possible and won't waste them.

    I am disgusted by actors on video complaining about how the rack on the critter doesn't quite measure up or prancing around like they are at a football game after a kill. If the critter didn't measure up why did you end it's life Einstein?

    My hunting is personal. I comply with my ethics even when no one is watching.
    Paper targets aren't your friends. They won't lie for you and they don't care if your feelings get hurt.

  6. #46
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    Well-said, Thumbcocker.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Shot View Post
    At the risk of appearing to be stalking you, Soundguy (honestly, I'm not), I gotta comment on this notion.

    This is the exact same strategy the anti-gunners used about 10 years ago, when they set out to ban all lead ammo (and I believe they succeeded in California). They claimed that when game animals are hit with bullets containing lead, the lead bullet fragments into a bajillion pieces and (somehow) that lead goes everywhere throughout the animal, kinda like X-rays or gamma rays, and no matter how well you try to fish it out when butchering the animal, lead gets through and goes into your food. Or supposedly.

    Then they concocted some "studies" to prove that hunters who consumed wild game had higher lead levels in their blood than those who didn't eat wild game.

    The only problem is that they "cherry picked" their data, and lost in the results -- and only very rarely reported by the anti-gun, anti-hunting media -- was the fact that the kids in their "study" who ate NO wild game actually had higher lead levels in their blood than kids who regularly ate deer, etc. OOPS!

    Point is, it's not hard to keep bullet fragments out of your food, whether they're lead, zinc, bismuth or unobtainium. If it's deer, you don't use the meat near where the bullet passed through, which isn't difficult since (with j-bullets at least) the lead-tainted meat is generally a bloodshot mess, and you'd have to be mighty hungry to eat it. As for small game killed with lead shot, if I'm not mistaken, even if you swallow a few pellets, they won't elevate the lead in your blood much because the particles are too big -- it's the tiny fragments with lots of surface area that you want to avoid (like the powdered lead oxide in old paints).

    I suspect that we bullet casters inhale and swallow far more lead in our casting activities than even somebody who eats nothing except lead-shot wild game...which may be one reason (some) hunters in the study mentioned above had higher blood lead levels than the general population...
    Im not sure what point you are trying to make with my post??

    I've never had a lead bullet fragment in my meat. I've had them mushroom..bend, bevel..etc..but they have retained weight. When hunting with jacketed even when the bullet didn't pass through it always shed jacket material the whole way through.. And while my cast lead never fragmented..even on bone hits..the jacketed ALWAYS did. I never recovered a full weight jacketed bullet. Many time the jacket stripped back and allowed the core to fragment or split. I always lost more meat shooting jacketed.. Took longer to clean too... Because of those fragments.. And that jacketing like little slivers going everywhere.

    That was a big reason why I switched to hunting with cast.

    Now..having shot bismuth ..ive found it fractures even worse..crumbles.. Not an overabundance of meat on birds..and when half of it has crumbled shot in it..yuck... As for zinc core ammo.. Used win varmintx with zinc core.. Was not impressed.. Worse than regular lead core jacketed.

    I don't want to dig thru bismuth and zinc granules when eating.

  8. #48
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    Soundguy, I don't think Buck Shot was responding in opposition to your thread, but weaving in the prohibition of lead bullets from Petlander's post
    "I would not hesitate to use my cast Applegate FN 470 grain 45-70 load on bear. But we have these laws here, an EXPANDING bullet is mandatory for all game and cast is classified as solid." and your post, #42 of this thread that replied with that quote and your statement about the ignorance of banning lead for hunting, etc... If I am not mistaken, Buck Shot was actually agreeing with you on this topic and giving examples of how the powers that be, or want to be, are trying to enact those same misguided rules on us in the States, too.

    All in all, this topic has certainly brought out the passions of our various members.
    While I am typing I'll add another story about lead slugs and game reactions to go along with others posted on here. Nigh of 25 years ago, maybe more, I pushed some does and a young buck out of their lair as I was trying to sneak across a field at first light. White tails go north through the brambles as I watched from the south. Within 5 minutes a 12 gauge sounds off, piercing the cold November air from the direction I roused those deer toward. Nearly 3 hours later sitting at the base of a tree in the woods I noticed a fellow walking through the grown up pasture on the farm only I had permission to hunt. Calling out to him and walking over to where his position he told me his name (I knew the family) he had shot a young buck first thing in the morning but for the life of him couldn't find it, as it ran in that direction. Telling him I had pushed that deer toward him we spoke about his shot from a tree stand on the fence line of that farm, how close the buck and does were, very close, and the reaction of the deer upon the shot. He was searching and could not find a drop of blood. Frustrated he knew he had to leave because he promised his wife he would help her with Christmas decorations at church that day. We parted ways on friendly terms and I hadn't walked ten steps when a buck hiding the bushes caused me to bring up my muzzleloader to shoot, only it was already dead with a perfect 72 caliber hole through the chest. "HEY OTT, COME GET YOUR DEER!" There wasn't a pool of blood or any sign of a hit from where I stood, and the deer laid, which was at least 80 yards from his tree stand. It was dead from the moment he had pulled the trigger, but the buck wouldn't believe it until the trail ended. The hunter had given up, and I had the privilege of finding it and helping him pull it out. Moral of the story? Never give up if at all possible.

    Now I need to open the package from NOE that the postman just delivered. More lead will be cast soon, so it seems.

  9. #49
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    Laws should have to be fact checked before passed. Whoever wrote that lead was non expanding......

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    This post got me all fired up to make sure my 77/44 was still sighted in at a 100 yards. I went out today with some of my loads I had sitting around from last year. It’s a 265 grain Lyman devastator HP loaded with 21 grains of H110. If I remember the velocity is around 1600 FPS and the BH is 7.8. I was aiming at the little orange sticker. My first shot….







    My zero is still on apparently. I then jumped on the Nikon spot on program to approximate my drops. I used a 270 grain Speer and plugged in 1600 FPS muzzle velocity. It said 20” low at 200 yards. Lol

    I knew from my 2-7 vx1, on my 336 chambered in 35 Rem, that where the thin and thick part of the cross hairs meet at 7X is about perfect for a 8”/9” drop aiming point at 200 yards. I tried this last year with the gun and shot a 2 1/4” 200 yard group in the bullseye with our 200 grain group buy HP.

    Well, anyways I basically eyeballed down the thick part of the cross hair that looked like it was an equal length of the thin part of the crosshair and let my boolit fly at 200 yards. Three for three I hit a 6” gong. I would guess that’s about the limit for effective killing distance on whitetail with my load. I would have to keep a range finder in my pocket if I ever wanted to harvest one at that distance. My load drops like a lead balloon…or boolit. According to my program zeroed at 100 yards drops 6.5 at 150 yards and 12” at 175. I would assume my load would run out of effective deer killing energy past 200 yards??? I would guess 200 yards is probably pushing it?

    It’s hard to see the “fresh” 3 hits on the 200 yard gong with my photo but the three hits were bright silver. My boolits sure made that gong swing!



    My goal is to harvest a deer during our anterless and anterless holiday hunts with ALOT softer alloy this time around. I’d like to see if the softer alloy anchors deer quicker than the hard non expanding alloy I tried a few seasons back. I use these hunts to try out cast boolits on deer.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 09-24-2021 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Spelling

  11. #51
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    Speaking of hard and expanding, does anyone else for recovery and or hammer tests ( I do ). As in shoot a gallon jug full of Jello backed up by inches of stuff like wet phone books?
    And of course..hammer on a bullet to see if it fractures or reforms?

    I do the hammer test when working up a load with water quenching. For hunting I want hard enough to penetrate the target animal but still mushroom to 2x diameter or as close as I can get.... And no fracturing.

    Reminds me..my supply of old phone books is nearly depleted. Used to be able to get stacks of them by the dumpster at the post office.. Havn't seen any in a couple years now.

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I use to… now I just test them on deer instead. The ones that penetrated the farthest and retained the most weight on water jug tests did not work well on deer for me. The ones that had shallow penetration, mushroomed quickly, and lost a lot of weight did excellent. So doing water jug tests imo was a waste of time. I should have listened to other posters on their extensive alloy choices they used on real game animals and it would have have saved a lot of time…and long, frustrating tracking jobs with zero blood to follow.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 09-23-2021 at 08:47 PM.

  13. #53
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    I followed your posts, Tripplebeards, about the Devastators on those deer and am looking forward to your results this season with the softer alloy. That is an inspiring target photo. You shouldn't have any difficulty tagging out with that type of accuracy.

  14. #54
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    Wow..i hate slugs that loose weight.. Has always mea t more meat loss when I clean..having to chase other cavitation channels where fragments split off. That's why I prefer a softer expanding non fracturing alloy. I tend to think of a target animal weight I want to take and load for over half penetration. That way.. Say I am going for a 150# hog and see a hundred.. I can still go for a heart lung shot and not howitzer him.. Or if I see a 200 or 250.. I know I'm still getting deep enough to not just ride around in 6" of hide, fat and shoulder armor for someone else to get him next season. Only straight soft lead I hunt with are front stuffers... I much prefer my 69 cal musket vs a 50 cal rifle... Most shots have been a max of 40 yrs.. That 69 cal ball is impressive on a hog... I make my own with an old Lyman mold.. And patch with ticking.
    Last edited by Soundguy; 09-24-2021 at 04:22 PM.

  15. #55
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    I have shot several deer, coyote, & smaller critters, never a bear yet, maybe this year. I have pretty much settled on 50/50 WW/Pure + pinch of tin to about every load I use (PD'd or Lubed) up to about 2165 fps if the twist rate will tolerate the vel. This combo requires a brush thru the barrel at 3-5 rounds depending on twist & velocity. Almost always some expansion, But a great meat gitter if not too close. I am a meat hunter so I mostly use cast, but Jacketed bullets have their place, especially Yotes at further distances. I haven't found a better "standard" alloy mix "Yet".

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by versa-06 View Post
    I have shot several deer, coyote, & smaller critters, never a bear yet, maybe this year. I have pretty much settled on 50/50 WW/Pure + pinch of tin to about every load I use (PD'd or Lubed) up to about 2165 fps if the twist rate will tolerate the vel. This combo requires a brush thru the barrel at 3-5 rounds depending on twist & velocity. Almost always some expansion, But a great meat gitter if not too close. I am a meat hunter so I mostly use cast, but Jacketed bullets have their place, especially Yotes at further distances. I haven't found a better "standard" alloy mix "Yet".
    Start powder coating them and you won’t have leading.

  17. #57
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    OK my bad I posted PD'd meant PC'd. The only 2 I have that require brushing is a 26.5 gr W-296 & 314 gr Smoke"s PC'd flat based boolit out of a 26" 1885 454 casull. Not so much leading I think it's PC residue from no gas check. The other is a 358 Win & 41 gr WC-846 with a 254 gr PC'd boolit about 2165 fps, It does ok for about 5 rounds & then needs the brush. Not lead but a powdery residue. I may need to change coatings & go with Smoke's Bacon Grease.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    We all know an animal will die when hit in the heart and lungs but in my experience it seems that the slower the boolit/bullet velocity, the longer it takes for it to expire and usually little to no blood trail. Of course if backbone, spine, or head is hit they will drop no matter how slow or fast a bullet is pushed. I’ve also experienced really fast velocities using Nosler Accubonds with run off with well placed shots. It’s when they first came out…don’t know if they have changed the alloy or design since? I quit using Nosler accubonds after poking a few 180 grainers out of a 30-06 through both lungs of a few buck and had them still stand in place like they weren’t hit and eventually run off. All were recovered. Looked like an arrow with a field point or FMJ poked right through both bucks I recovered. I had the same experience with a 375 RUM and 260 grain accubonds on Deer. Two double lung and part of the heart on one and both ran over a hundred yards with zero blood. Zero energy transfer and hole poking makes for long trailing from my past experiences. I’ll take a soft expanding boolit/bullet for hunting game 100% of the time that dumps energy causing trauma, and usually a good blood trail…if even needed. I’d don’t worry about eating all the way to the hole and never will. We can shoot unlimited deer here in WI. I always have left over venison every year I end up giving to friends, relatives, and donate. I’d rather see an animal drop in its tracks and loose a little meat.
    I would guess that your bullet choices were mismatched to the game. The .30 180gr Accubond and certainly the 260gr AB in a 375 RUM were designed for much heavier game than deer. Deer offer almost no resistance for these heavily-constructed bullets to expand; they're too small. Shoot an elk or moose or large bear with these same loads and I'd bet you have a much better outcome. JMO

  19. #59
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    Ref: OP - Alloy type & Speed kills; I read once a Vet. school culled a large amt. of deer over 100 using same shooter, 30-06, attempted same shot placement behind shoulder. Then autopsied all of them. All of the ones that were DRT had brain hemorrhaging. After complete testing of all deer, the conclusion was, That at the time of impact, the heart had put the circulatory system under pressure & the shock wave of the bullet over exceeded the pressure limits of the vessels in the brain, almost like shooting it in the head. The ones shot with a relaxed heart had no vessels in the brain disturbed, and moved after the shot. Maybe this helps explain DRT.

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bisleyfan41 View Post
    I would guess that your bullet choices were mismatched to the game. The .30 180gr Accubond and certainly the 260gr AB in a 375 RUM were designed for much heavier game than deer. Deer offer almost no resistance for these heavily-constructed bullets to expand; they're too small. Shoot an elk or moose or large bear with these same loads and I'd bet you have a much better outcome. JMO
    Nosler told me I should have used a 150 grain out of my 30-06 so it was pushed above 3,000 FPS muzzle velocity. I had my 180 grainers loaded at 2650 FPS. They told me the same thing. The bullet sailed through with no expansion. It acted like a pointy FMJ. So with that said, I would have thought the 260 grain out of my 26” barreled 375 RUM would have opened up as it was around 3100 FPS. Needless to say I won’t use those bullets any more after shooting a few deer with two different calibers. I have some partitions I’ve tried in both guns but the a accuracy is not where near what a “tipped” bullet is. I have to say neither the accubonds or partitions will group MOA in either guns. The cheap corelocts and ballistic tips will all touch at 100 yards in both guns and will put deer down on the spot.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 09-25-2021 at 10:17 AM.

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