I love the sport (as stated above) of casting & loading my own. And I live in an area w-Long & short shots. Usually carry a 35-45 cal rifle using cast, & a 223 up to 30-06 along also loaded with J-words for the Long shots that I don't want to miss out on. I 4-wheel up close then put one rifle on my back along with my back pack & carry the other the rest of the way. I do this even when hunting Yotes, I hold the cast rifle & prop the other beside me for the extra long stuff.
I just never felt the sport in a long range shot..
Is there really any 'sport' in shooting a goat on the next mountain using a Hubble telescope, then hiking down your mountain and up the next mountain to find the animal you shot 6 hours ago..who by the time you get him down will only be good for mounting? You are past the animals range of visual acuity and well past scent range and earshot... And you have -0- skin in the game. The word 'sport' just doesn't fit good.
It may well be a challenge to line up that 1200yd shot on your 3000$ rifle...which 2000$ of it is glass... But.. The animal had no chance or recourse... At best it's a lucky challenge... An animal walked into a shooting lane a quarter mile from you and you got him.
Totally different feel than following a hog and watching him thru a space in a tree trunk as he smells you.. That animal has a chance.. And you have to work for it..stalk it.. Etc. 100 and lower yard shots are hunting... Long shots are harvesting... Just my opinion...
Gentleman on youtube I know personally shoots to 1200 yds with those inaccurate lead projectiles out of sidelocks (muzzle loader TC renegades that will keep up with a lot of those copper clad ones and he does it with a Lyman receiver site or a Lee Shaver venier . And the man hunts but boy can he shoot targets ,so much for target/accuracy and he proves it on a regular basis (ID----Lewis)
I agree with most everything that has been said so for. For me I like having as much control as possible with the ammo. But I also agree with "dverna", if my hunting spot had 300 yds shots instead of 100 then I would be using jacketed. There are plenty of reasons that one is better than the other and its up the the hunter and his skill level to pick the best option. On my hunting grounds I choose cast because I think I get cleaner kills than jacketed and always get two holes vs having a jacketed bullet blow up because the impact velocity was higher than the bullet was built for. And yes I know I have some control over bullet selection but not like I do with cast.
Tony
IF there was the possibility of a 300 yard shot where I hunt, I have several rifles there is NO DOUBT I could easily place a cast bullet well in the boiler room. I'm not buyin' cast bullets are ineffective beyond spittin' distances for a nano second. If 200 to 480 grains of bullet won't kill an animal at 300 yards it won't do it at 50..and I know better.
If I didn't know my rifle and load any better than that, I wouldn't tell anyone.
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Last deer I shot was a fair sized doe.
Shot her at about 40 yds. from an elevated stand with a 270 using a Nosler 150 gr partition. As soon as the bullet hit her she started running. Ran around in an open field for about 80 to 100 yds. then dropped. No blood trail. I had hit lung and heart. Her chest cavity was full of blood. I was initially disappointed in the bullets effect. Thought I was going to loose a deer on my last day of hunting. Plane ticket for the next day. Once my brother and I dressed her out I realized that she was dead the minute the bullet hit her, she just didn't realize it. Point is animals react differently even when mortally wounded.
This pretty much explains this phenomenon, https://youtu.be/BvWhX2MHzYQ
Jedman
None of it is "sport" unless and until the animal agrees to be hunted. Absent that, it's predation. Nothing more and nothing less.Originally Posted by Soundguy
There's also a conflict between some people's idea of "sport" versus being humane and trying to ensure a fast, clean kill.
I suppose if you wanted to maximize "sport," you could climb up into a tree in your breechcloth and jump down on the deer with your Clovis and cut its throat. Plenty "sporting," I suppose, but would it be humane? What percentage of attempts would lead to a kill? 10%? One percent? And what percentage would lead to a wounded animal?
On the other end of the spectrum, I suppose one could hunt over lights and bait and shoot deer from a rest on the hood of the car at 25 yards. Plenty "humane," since you'd have about zero chance of wounding the animal, but is it "sporting"?
In between those two extremes -- where I would guess that 99.999% of us hunt -- is just a varying shade of gray.
More to the point: Attacking "the other guy's" method of hunting as somehow less virtuous, less "sporting" or less humane than your own method serves no one and nothing. Because at the end of the day, unless and until those prey animals AGREE to be hunted, it's not sport, and it's not "fair chase." It's predation.
What prey animals would choose to be hunted?
Sorry for the soap box, but this is a pet peeve of mine.
I didn't attack anyone's hunting or harvesting method. I did however express my opinion that " I " did not feel that multi thousand yard shots were sporting. I think it takes great skill and or gear to make those shots...but as I said before..with -0- skin in the game.. It's not sporting.
When you are 40 yards from a herd of dangerous game that CAN smell you and see you..and CAN charge to point blank range in the time it takes you to notice and shoulder a rifle, and said animal can hand-wave killing you... Then..you have skin in the game... And it's sporting. Everyone has a chance at a kill..even the animals. And if you don't think close range hunting of dangerous animals nets a few animal getting their point across..check out videos of dangerous game gone wrong. Including cats that pop out of a bush 3' away... Bears..large/many hogs.. Cape buff. Hippo...etc. Sorry.. That's my pet peeve and soapbox... Setting a quarter mile away and acting like that is anything other than target shooting on live targets... It's not, again imho, SPORTING. the animal has 0 chance. Get a few yards away from a 14000 pound animal... That's sporting... ( fair odds in a game or contest ). At least in close proximity to your animal it can use its better than human senses to evade or predate you... And you can use your reduced senses and lethally powered tools to also try and do the same... Ie... You have skin in the game. ) the mountain goat 1200 yards away... Where's your skin? = it doesn't exist... That's why I don't call it sporting. Challenging display of skill? Sure...
One could just as easily argue that any dope can bait in a hog and shoot it at 50 feet. No marksmanship skill needed and not much else.
On the other hand, you could also argue that a goat at 600 yds has a lot more chance to get away than the hog at 50 ft. In the time it takes a bullet to travel 600 yds, a goat could take three steps.
Personally, I think "shooting a hog at 50 feet" is more on the humane end of the spectrum (not a lot of sport, but fairly humane) than shooting (at) a goat at 600 yds, since the goat stands a bigger chance of being wounded (less humane) but it's also a lot harder to shoot one at 600 (more "sporting"), meaning he has more of a chance to get away.
My main point is that it's ALL predation, just different forms. And none of it is "fair" unless and until the animal agrees to be a part of it. People who bandy about these terms -- "fair chase," "sporting," etc. -- are kidding themselves if they think any of it is much different than the rest of it.
It's no different than the guy who says, "I see no reason AR-15s shouldn't be banned" when he wants to keep his Auto-5 and Remington 7400. They're all semi-autos and all operate the exact same way, none of them "spray bullets," none of them are "weapons of war," AR-15s aren't "more powerful" than any other gun (they're less powerful than most deer rifles), and they're used in less than 2% of all murders. Handguns are used in 17X as many murders as rifles of any kind. And if they can get away with banning a gun that's used in less than 2% of all murders, you'd better believe they can get away with banning them all.
Point is, trying to draw a distinction where is no difference, does nobody any favors. Some people consider bowhunting to be bordering on inhumane, since so many arrowed deer escape to die in pain, but it's plenty "sporting," I guess, for the same reason: More chance for the animal to get away. But for a hunter to attack bowhunting as "inhumane" is kind of dumb, since any and every method of hunting -- PREDATION -- falls somewhere on the line between "sporting" and "humane." We're all in this boat together, and it doesn't help when people attack other hunters or other hunting methods. They may not realize it, but their own methods can also be attacked. A hunting method that is supposedly "more sporting" is very often less humane, since there's usually more of a chance for the animal to be wounded. And a hunting method that is supposedly "more humane" -- using a tree to steady a rifle for example -- is very often less "sporting," since the animal has less chance of getting away.
Hunting is a sport, Yes. I believe the sport statement I made was in reference to casting & loading my own which in my opinion adds to the sport. Not Long Range being the sport. The jacketed rifle is for the shots I don't feel comfortable with shooting cast. I am a meat hunter & don't like it blood shot meat. But I surely don't want that long range Yote to have a chance. I am his predator.
Millennial thinking must be catching on more.
It's amazing that expressing an opinion of what I consider as sporting is being equated to attacking someone else's actions.
Predation isn't the problem here...
Our country is circling the drain...
"Millennial"? Nah, I missed that by about 50 years.
Anyway, sorry for the derail, ChristopherO...
No way do I get within a quarter mile of a 14 thousand lb animal without my handi/dandi RPG ,just sayin Ed
Well stated Buckshot,I personally dislike anyone bad mouthing any legal method of hunting/Ed
[QUOTE=Buck Shot;5266604]None of it is "sport" unless and until the animal agrees to be hunted. Absent that, it's predation. Nothing more and nothing less.
There's also a conflict between some people's idea of "sport" versus being humane and trying to ensure a fast, clean kill.
I suppose if you wanted to maximize "sport," you could climb up into a tree in your breechcloth and jump down on the deer with your Clovis and cut its throat. Plenty "sporting," I suppose, but would it be humane? What percentage of attempts would lead to a kill? 10%? One percent? And what percentage would lead to a wounded animal?
I'm pretty sure those Clovis points were on the end of an arrow or spear
an old timer who collects fossils and points and stuff showed me a fossilized deer shoulder bone that had one of those stone points imbedded in it and it was clear to see that the bone healed or grew around it. wish I had a picture it was quite the relic
For six years I hunted with nothing but cast boolits. I used 44 Magnum, 357 Maximum, 38-55, 45-70 and an H&R 50 cal muzzle loader using the modified Lee 310 with sabot. The boolits were A modified Lee 429310, gas shank removed, boolit weight 250 grains; a Saeco 180 grain RFN, the Lyman 375449 and the Lee 458405 HP. Between the 5 guns I killed 9 deer, all shots were inside 50 yards and no deer traveled more than 40 yards, most dropped within 25. The following several years I hunted using 223, 243, 30-30, 7 Mauser, 30-06. I used the Winchester 64 grain SP, Remington 100 SP, a Winchester 150 SP, Hornady 120 Vmax and Speer 150 Hot Core SP at 2600 fps. The ranges were the same except the doe shot with the 243 which was at 225 yards. Those guns accounted for 8 deer. For practical purposes I could tell no difference between the performance of the jacketed bullets and the cast and could tell no difference in the deer's reactions to being hit, even the one I shot with the 7 Mauser at 10 yards!
Am I saying that cast boolit performance is equal to jacketed bullet performance? No. As has been mentioned by others, there are things jacketed bullets will do that cast will not. I am however saying that each in their own ways are just as deadly as the other. There is simply too much solid and successful experience with cast boolits and hunting for anyone to say that they won't do a proper job of making clean kills. Deer are not armor plated, neither are Cape Buffalo, American Bison or elk. Do your homework, practice practice practice, know and live within your limitations and either bullet will serve you well.
I have shot deer from 5 yards to 600 yards using cast bullets. The 5 yards were with several different handguns and a traditional muzzle loader. The 600 was using a trap door springfield and blackpowder loaded ammo. Also using the original Buffington rear sight. Being close when I was18 didn't feel sporting. What I was hunting shot back and at 10 to 30 yards.
Steve
I remember a moose that I shot @ 10 yards with 30-96, Norma Oryx factory round.
A clean lungs through, that moose ran half a mile before dropping. Why? No, the bullet didn't fail but that moose had been chased by dogs for hours and was full of adrenaline. It knew it was being hunted, it knew there were humans around and after it.
Another big moose had no idea what hit it @ 420 meters, it had been shot in the guts the day before and I got the call to "clean it up", open field, long shot needed. 338 Lapua, that moose took five steps and DRT. And yes,I have practised 300-600 meters for 25 years regularly, J bullets.
Adrenaline can change the requirements for a quick kill.
A friend just reported about the new Sako Blade bullet. He has already shot 16 whitetails with it in 300 WM, ranges from 20 to 320 meters. With decades of 300 WM experience he says it" s the best bullet ever, accuracy at 100m is under 10 mm / 5. It will not shatter @ 900 m/s bone impact, it will open @ 400 m/s...
I have no chances to better that with any cast bullet.
Now please don't get me wrong, cast is very effective. I love to cast bullets, I love to shoot cast, I have some accurate loads for 45-70 and shotgun slugs... but I always hunted with J. I have collected some 45-70 J bullets from the opposite side hide, shot maybe seven moose with 45-70. Very effective. 350 Hornady @ 2100 being favourite. Speer 400 is good,too,softer.
I would not hesitate to use my cast Applegate FN 470 grain 45-70 load on bear. But we have these laws here, an EXPANDING bullet is mandatory for all game and cast is classified as solid.
Last edited by Petander; 09-23-2021 at 02:49 AM.
To some it's not sport unless within 5-70 yds. to others that's an execution, too close needs to be 200 yds plus. To some using all the gismos available (scent blocker, camo, range finders, scopes, rifles, & etc.) is not sport just a hand gun. No! maybe a bow, No! too much advantage, Spear maybe? Or maybe we should just go get a rock & then some liberal will say it's "inhumane".
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