Cast Boolit Effects on Game

[ChristopherO]

This topic is subjective, depending on alloy, profile, velocity, etc..., yet, it is important for those who may not be initiated in hunting with lead arena, or have little experience. I read all the time that a (place caliber of boolit here) doesn't need to expand because it is already xx/xx of an inch already. Or that all the buffalo were kilt with such and such, and once you stroke the trigger the quarry doesn't stand a chance because the lightning of Thor will smote it in it's tracks, DRT. To accept this line of thinking will cause the novice lead boolit hunter to question their choice of projectile right quick once the trigger is pulled. Let me share an example:

This past Saturday I was beating myself up with the 45/70, getting ready for the upcoming deer season. To end the session I finished sighting in a light load in the 35 Whelen using 7 grains of Bullseye and a hard cast 190 grain FN PC bullet at 100 yards. Such fun seeing the holes open the paper within an inch and a half. These are flying between 1,000 and 1,100 FPS. Not fast and no expansion, but with a good meplat to cut a path through paper, or possibly tissue.

Then my friend texted to remind me that her barn floor is being destroyed by a family of groundhogs and she needs help. With the Whelen shooting so good I drove straight over. At 30 yards the cross hairs were centered half way up the torso on a prone hog and I let rip. My, that whistle pig jumped nearly 2' up and took off into the raggity barn ten steps away as if not touched. No spoor was found nor was the varmint in the interior of the barn. I surmised it made it down the hole or passed under a piece of equipment. The next day I popped an other with the 17HMR at the same range, dropping dead where it rolled off the rocks. A fast, small bullet has different characteristics.

Today I drove by and noticed two buzzards at the barn, which wasn't where I disposed of the HMR kill. Walking up to the barn was the first groundhog's carcass, having been pulled out of the barn by some unknown animal and being picked at by the birds. The 35 caliber boolit passed crosswise through the torso, killing it but allowing a run away from the scene of the crime before succumbing to its wounds.

This reminds me of over three decades ago when I first started shooting and hunting with 50 caliber muzzleloaders, black powder and pure lead conical slugs at 1,180 fps. I would sneak up on groundhogs, drill them through the chest only to have them run to their holes with a half inch hole where it shouldn't be for long life. How can such a small creature, though dead on its feet run off when the lungs and heart have been demolished? I began to equate heavy, wide nose lead slugs with broadheads, they cause a big wound, if placed correctly does kill the creature quickly but probably not at the spot of impact. Bang/Flops were and are not to be counted on, in my considerable experience with this type of projectile. Sure they can happen, but don't be surprised when they don't, accept it as it comes.

If a groundhog can absorb a piece of lead 1/3rd, or even 1/2 of an inch and run off, think of what deer size game will do. Yes, that's exactly what they normally do. Yet, don't let that deter your hope of making meat. Placed in the right spot that animal is down at the end of a fast sprint, awaiting to be field dressed and hauled off to be butchered. The faster the lead boolit is launched with a good flat nose or expandable soft lead at the front the better, IMHO. But get used to blood trailing with dogged determination. That can be a sport in and of its self. I share this to hopefully give those new to this type of hunting a better understanding, not to give up once the shot is made and the animal's reaction doesn't give the slightest hint that you are successful in executing a perfect shot. Stay at the track and be rewarded with the prize at the end of the trail. Happy Hunting this Fall.

ChristopherO

[Beaver Scout]

Sectional density and the animal make a huge difference. I've always said "speed kills" and the hydrostatic shock that some bullets make when traveling at super sonic speeds (sometimes 3x or more the speed of sound) makes for either very fast kills or splash damage, depending on the bullet. A bullet that can expand inside the animal and give up all it's energy with out flying to pieces is the perfect killing bullet, at least in my opinion.

[BJK]

Nicely stated Chris.

High velocity bullets that explode, and slow and heavy bullets with flat meplats that just plow through both work, they just work differently. Shot placement is critical with both but more so with the latter. Yes, you might need to be able to track the shot animal. Maybe it's not for where hunters are packed tightly together. There I would think you'd want the target to drop immediately or close to it.

I've never had to use it (now I can't), but a red lensed flashlight is said to work great on a blood trail.

[405grain]

I vividly remember decades ago scaling down the canyon to fish on the Ell river. About half way down to the water I spied a ground squirrel clinging to a vertical rock face like a spider only 15 yards away. I drew a bead on it with a Colt New Service in 45 LC. I hit the squirrel dead center and made a hole big enough to put your thumb through. The 250 grain boolit fragmenting on the rock blew the squirrel off the face and it fell about 35 yards to the rock and gravel edge of the riverbed below. That squirrel hit the ground running and zipped into some brush. Without even slowing down the squirrel came out of the brush on the other side, ran another 40 yards, then darted down a squirrel hole. I've had other ground squirrels that I've shot with a 245 grain boolit from a 44 mag. (about 900 fps) drop dead on the spot. Other cast bullet shots have run the gambit between these two extremes.

Two years ago I was shooting ground squirrels on an alfalfa farm North of Mt Shasta. I'd reloaded a couple of hundred Nosler lead free 40 grain 22 bullets for my 223. I was up and set up before sunrise, and it was below freezing on a clear crisp day. This was the first time that I'd tried sintered copper bullets, and had seen all the hype on how they had "explosive expansion", but was going to check it out for myself. I got my first shot at a squirrel at about 80 yards, and at the shot it disappeared. It is very common to get a near miss on a squirrel and have then jump down their hole so fast that they're gone before you can pick up the sight picture in the scope. I just figured that I'd missed. The same thing happened on the next 4 squirrels. I was beginning to wonder what's going on here. I gave the rifle a quick check and all the scope mounting hardware was good and tight. How could I have missed? It was then that I noticed the steam coming up in the cold morning air from the spots where the squirrels had been standing. These weren't misses. The bullets weren't just popping the squirrels apart, they were vaporizing them! I got shots out to 250 yards that day, and when those bullets connected on a squirrel it was like they stepped on a land mine.

So, the moral is you can use anything that's accurate for varminting. The critters will be just as dead. The choices in projectiles that you make will determine the terminal effects. Shooting a light weight hollow point cast 30 caliber boolit won't be as effective as a 200 grain 30 caliber torpedo if the 200 grain is more accurate. On the whole I think that varminting with cast plinking loads in a centerfire rifle would be good practice for big game hunting. Even if your a dyed in the wool varminter, there's no reason not to take a cast boolit gun along on something like a prairie dog shoot.

[dverna]

Cannot relate any cast experience. Jacketed hunting bullets are all I use to hunt with. Why compromise on accuracy, trajectory and energy to save a few dollars a year....if that? But I hunt with modern calibers that benefit from the attributes of jacketed bullets.

But critters are unpredictable. I have had deer in the same point of impact DRT and also run 50 yards...go figure.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Over the years I have recovered a lot of cast boolits from game, mostly 45/70 from wild hogs and the small one in the foreground an 80gn (25/20) from a fox. All were taken under 100 yards and all under 1500fps with soft cast.

[Edward]

Cannot relate any cast experience. Jacketed hunting bullets are all I use to hunt with. Why compromise on accuracy, trajectory and energy to save a few dollars a year....if that? But I hunt with modern calibers that benefit from the attributes of jacketed bullets.

But critters are unpredictable. I have had deer in the same point of impact DRT and also run 50 yards...go figure.

Cost is never a consideration with me (never was) it was casting the perfect bullet @ the correct (BHN) for the intended target being target or game ! Close to 50 yrs casting (a sport in itself) produces perfect results if I do my part . I consider lead and all it"s alloyed variations superior to any copper clad (BOOLIT) ,why I have not bought or considered anything other than projectiles produced by me for the specific target . Your mileage /experience (skill level casting will vary) and so will the results/Ed

[sharps4590]

Killed a LOT of game with both kinds of bullets. Swore off jacketed bullets 25 or more years ago when I learned I could have as good, if not better results with cast bullet and, I got tired of cleaning liquified internals. I would MUCH rather dress an animal killed with one of my cast loaded rifles as to dress one my wife shoots with her 243. It ain't about saving money or a little blood shot meat, I simply don't like the mess and, it's another component I have control of.

[ABJ]

Interesting this thread popped up today, just yesterday I was reading different energy numbers and comparing to TKO numbers. I too have killed plenty of deer with both jacketed and cast as well as muzzleloaders. Trying to say X is better than Y on paper is in my opinion useless.
Case in point, several years ago I took a big doe with a 45 round ball, muzzle vel. around 1700/1800. Double lung, broadside at 60 yds. She ran around 25/30 yards and dropped. Years later, same shot with a 45-70, 300 grain FP and 1200 muzzle vel.(Fork horn) exact same results.
What can I draw from this experience? A double lung broadside shot with a not expanding bullet/boolit, gives about the same results without regard to small differences in caliber or nose profile.
We harvest a lot of meat in our hunt club, with the vast majority being taken with a 35 Remington, cast, 200 grain Lee FN running 1800 at the muzzle. The average run is around 35 yds give or take. Heart and nervous system hits are DRT. Raking shots with less than perfect placement can result in a 200 yd track.
Before we all switched to cast the above story is about the same with .243 all the way to 30-06 jacketed. Always take ethical shots you know you can make and never feel under gunned because your using a boolit you made.
Tony

[farmbif]

the writeup sixshot gave us here just last week about his experience hunting in Africa was an excellent real world testament of just how effective cast bullets can be.

[elk hunter]

From squirrels to Cape Buffalo I've taken a lot of game with jacketed bullets and a number with lead. Both will give good or poor results based more on bullet placement than type, if the bullet is appropriate for the game.

[ChristopherO]

Cast boolits allow me to shoot much more often. I really like to shoot. When Ohio was a shotgun, muzzleloader, pistol state for deer only the Lightfield Hybred Sabot Slugs cost nearly $2.00 per round. I shot a few sighters a year to prepare, but target practicing was out of the question. When ODNR opened up to straight wall cartridges I procured a 45/70, cast, load and shoot to my heart's content for pennies compared to factory ammo. Did I mention that I like to shoot? Casting and loading allows this much more often. Plus, knowing how well constructed lead boolits kill game with these types of firearms justifies hunting with them, but I know how they perform and follow through accordingly. Yes, I load jacketed bullets, too, and have hunted with them whenever I am in a state that bottle neck rounds are legal, so I understand the dynamics of their effects on game, also. My oldest son has taken all his elk and mule deer with the handloads I put together for him using Nosler Partitions in the 30 calibers, or the Hornady SP's in the 338. The elk I shot in the late 90's was using Nosler PT out of the same box as my son has so successfully put to use. I am not opposed to either jacketed or cast to hunt with. My objective to write is to encourage those who may not have the amount of experience with this type of projectile to accept that many times the reaction will be different than what is seen on TV or what they've encountered using commercially jacketed bullets. Still, the end result will be found at the end of the blood trail for either boolit/bullet.

[Tripplebeards]

Here is an example of three deer taken with to hard of an alloy using a mag rifle at 1750 FPS. I had 2 run over a 100 yards with little to no blood trail. The third one dropped because i hit bone. The shattered bone acted like HP fragments and dropped it. The deer still kicked around for a good minute or two for expiring even through it dropped. I shot a few nuisance raccoons with a 255 grain, 45 colt at 575 FPS. With the same slow reaction. A 22lr out of a pistil kills like lightening compared to the Colt load. I did shoot a deer with my 35 Remington last year like lightning. I used a 200 grain HP casted of 50/50 at 2100 FPS. Here are the posts on my past experiences. I am guessing once you get 2,000 FPS and above the “shock” value comes into play for a “faster kill”.



https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...my-devastators!!!


https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...n-HP-group-buy!


I do plan on trying my 44 mag on deer this year during the holiday hunt. The load will be around 1600 FPS or so with a 7.5 BH HP. I hoping the after lead HP expands quickly for some energy transfer and good blood trail if needed this time around. If the deer runs after the shot no one seems to hunt on the surrounding neighbors properties during the hunt…and if so it’s not a wall hanger buck someone else will end up with if ends up crossing fences and the neighbor tags it. They only other thing I shot with cast was aa rabbit at 136 yards. I used the same Lyman devastator with a max load of W296 and 100% COWW. It cut the rabbit in half.

[Buck Shot]

Groundhogs can be surprisingly tough. I once shot one thru the body with a 270 Win 130 gr SP at almost point-blank range and he managed to crawl a surprisingly long distance before I finished him off.

On the other hand, I've shot rabbits with a shotgun that I swear must have died from a heart attack. I couldn't find a single pellet or drop of blood...go figure.

[Soundguy]

Nicely stated Chris.

High velocity bullets that explode, and slow and heavy bullets with flat meplats that just plow through both work, they just work differently. Shot placement is critical with both but more so with the latter. Yes, you might need to be able to track the shot animal. Maybe it's not for where hunters are packed tightly together. There I would think you'd want the target to drop immediately or close to it.

I've never had to use it (now I can't), but a red lensed flashlight is said to work great on a blood trail.

I like the big flat meplat lead bullets for hunting vs jacketed soft point.

I got sucked into a discussion on an un named social media post accidentally ( was a discussion on a squib round and a barrel full of stacked bullets ).. ... anyway.. some people there were talking about how much better jacketed bullets were at hunting and at how dismally bad lead bullets were.. and.. frankly I just didnt agree. I pointed out that in 1873? alone 1.5m buffs were killed alone.. and those were likely with plain lead, black powder 45-70's.. not to mention all of the safari hunts with black powder express rifles and bore rifles on the dark continent.. and every pre 1880 squirrel gun.. fowler or round ball shooter.. IMHO.. lead has probably taken more game in history than jacketed.. but that's a guess. I can push a gas checked and hardened, but sized to fit bore well.. bullet up -near- jacketed velocities and have a nice game taker with a flat nose... no shedding of jackets.. crumbling.. just a nice stop halfway or more thru the animal and an increase in diameter of 100 or more percent at the mushroom. I just havn't seen that with jacketed ammo. I used to hunt with jacketed.. and can remember digging out pieces of jacket and fragmented projectiles during cleaning vs a stumpy mushroom shaped chunk of lead...

Opinions?

[Tripplebeards]

We all know an animal will die when hit in the heart and lungs but in my experience it seems that the slower the boolit/bullet velocity, the longer it takes for it to expire and usually little to no blood trail. Of course if backbone, spine, or head is hit they will drop no matter how slow or fast a bullet is pushed. I’ve also experienced really fast velocities using Nosler Accubonds with run off with well placed shots. It’s when they first came out…don’t know if they have changed the alloy or design since? I quit using Nosler accubonds after poking a few 180 grainers out of a 30-06 through both lungs of a few buck and had them still stand in place like they weren’t hit and eventually run off. All were recovered. Looked like an arrow with a field point or FMJ poked right through both bucks I recovered. I had the same experience with a 375 RUM and 260 grain accubonds on Deer. Two double lung and part of the heart on one and both ran over a hundred yards with zero blood. Zero energy transfer and hole poking makes for long trailing from my past experiences. I’ll take a soft expanding boolit/bullet for hunting game 100% of the time that dumps energy causing trauma, and usually a good blood trail…if even needed. I’d don’t worry about eating all the way to the hole and never will. We can shoot unlimited deer here in WI. I always have left over venison every year I end up giving to friends, relatives, and donate. I’d rather see an animal drop in its tracks and loose a little meat.

[dverna]

I have a unique situation. I need a bullet that will work in a .308 at ranges from 50 to 300 yards. There is no incentive to turn a .308 into a less than a .30/30.

If cast hunting bullets in a rifle are superior projectiles for most of you, that is what you should use. But they are not the best for shooters who want accuracy, expansion and wind resistance at longer ranges. That is an important distinction...hunters vs shooters. I do not "hunt", I "shoot".

As to the argument that cast bullets allow for cheap practice...ding, ding, ding!!! That is the only reason I used cast bullets, but not in HV rifles. I have a couple of .30 cal and .22 molds I have never used. Got them for SHTF...or if our government tries to limit access to bullets. I was using .38/.357 caliber rifles to practice with until primers went nuts. (I used .38's because we shoot a lot and like to reload with cheap brass on a Dillon 1050.) I have found less expensive ways to get trigger time because with current primer prices, cast bullet shooting is no longer cheap.

[Soundguy]

I can't guess why you are unable to get accuracy out of cast loads.. I have found that I can dial a rifle in with cast and handloads vs the commercial mass produced fodder that has to chamber in every single rifle ever made in that caliber. Once you find good bore fit and ladder test up some powders..you are there. Wind resistance at extended range with a big meplat bullet is about the only thing I can think of where jacketed gets a clear hand up. I've found that big meplats in decently fast gas checked lead tends to make fine DRT animal hits vs almost AP qualities of hyper fast jacketed. My hogs always drop... I don't have to follow blood trails..or kill 2 animals with 1 shot like I have seen a hunter do... And unfortunately for him..he didn't have a doe tag for his secondary kill.

I'm also not one of those hunters that take inspiring shots at hundreds of yards where an animal has no clue. If I can't stalk up to 100 yards.. Im not going to pop an animal. Even my big safari guns are 50-150 yard guns..most regulating at about 75. As for big meplat? Federal made some nice solids in 416 rigby that I like... Huge meplat to plow thru.

I shoot and hunt....

[444ttd]

i have been on the cast boolit button for about 10 years. jacketed bullets was/is around 25+ years. all of the deer i shot, cast or jacketed, will either run or go DRT. on average, the run will be 30-50 yards, although i have a 125+ yards and a 500+ yards to my....ah..well....credit. and yes, they are a jacketed bullet kills.

jacketed bullets

the 125+ yards is my son's(he shot it), but i tracked it. he was about 25+/- yards away when he shot the big doe(175-200lbs). he was using a custom 98 mauser in 7x57 and 139gr hornady fn(discontinued) at 2500-2600fps. he shot the doe in the back lungs. she ran thru the brush and she disappeared. she was easy to find because of all the blood she leaked. i was impressed with the doe, because just when you think you have all the answers......

the 500+ yards is my fault. i was using a rem m700 in 243 with 85gr barnes x bullet going around 3000fps(i think, it was so long ago). i shot the doe right behind the shoulder at about 25-30 yards and she ran away. i waited about 10-15 minutes before i got onto her trail. there was little to no blood, but there was snow on there ground. i tracked her about 400+/- yards until i got into mountain laurel. then i got on my knees and hands to track her. i went about 100+/-yards till i found her. she was shot, like a pencil, behind the shoulder, thru both lungs and went out. i was disappointed with the new x bullet. i was also disappointed with the 243(i had rem 700 a,b, cdl and rem m7), so i sold her and i never returned to it.

i shot a 8 pt at 10-12 feet with my ruger #1 in 270 with 130gr nosler bt going around 3000fps. he ran about 50+/- yards till he gave up the ghost. there was also no blood or no snow on the ground, just disturbed leaves. i found him by tripping over him, i was into my tracking!!!!! he was shot high in the shoulder and there was lung soup with hearty chunks of heart or a grenade went off into him. you choose. there was not exit wound. there was also alot of shoulder meat that had to be thrown away(bloodshot). i shot quite a few deer with this gun/bullet and every deer i killed under 100 yards was the same way as the 8 pt.


cast boolits

every deer i killed(expect a few) ran about 20-30 yards. i shot them with a 35/30-30 with 200gr fn gc(1700fps), 44 mag/spl with 250 hp/255gr keith/275gr ranch dogs/280gr wfn, 444 marlin 275gr ranch dog/280gr wfn/fn gc/300 gr fn gc(1600-2100fps), 45-70 with 405gr fn(1300fps).

the few that i and my son have killed are all DRT. we are using my great grandfather's sporterized 1898 spr armory in 30-40 krag with 165gr ranch dogs at 1900fps. i have killed 6 or 7 deer that average about 40 yards, with one 120 yards+/- away. my son has killed 5 or 6 deer that average about 60 yards, with one 150+ yards and with another 173 yards(laser range finder thingy). all of them have been one shot and every one them goes straight down. shoulder or behind the shoulder, doesn't matter. i am stating a matter of fact, one day, the deer will run. but i bet that they don't go over 40 yards.

oh, the other drt was a doe at 50 yards with my 9.3x57 and 275gr wfn gc and it was a behind the shoulder shot. it broke a rib on entry, made a 1 1/2 - 2" dia hole thru both lungs and then broke two more ribs before it exited.



DRT or running, the jacketed bullets make a mess out of meat. cast does not. i hunt(even tho i'm disabled) and the closer the deer is, the better. i use cast basically because i was tired of killing deer with jacketed bullets. cast boolits breathed a whole new life into my shooting. how fast does it go? what alloy? its a whole different ball game now.

[dverna]

I have a unique situation. I need a bullet that will work in a .308 at ranges from 50 to 300 yards. There is no incentive to turn a .308 into a less than a .30/30.

I am lazy and cheap. A jacketed bullet does that for less than $40/100 and I can work up a load using less than 100 bullets. I bought a lifetime supply (500) of hunting bullets for less than $200. Much cheaper than trying different molds, alloys, lubes and burning up GC's, powder and primers to find a cast bullet that will not do as good a job as jacketed anyway. YMMV

Note: Important to draw the distinction between hunters and shooters. I am a shooter and not reluctant to taking a 300 yard shot in the wind. Hunters who take game at less than 100 yards do not need the performance advantages (trajectory, accuracy, wind resistance) of jacketed bullets. In addition, first shot out of group, or how lube performs at -15* vs 75* (I can be hunting at those extremes in MI) has less impact at shorter ranges.

Use what works for your hunting conditions. For the vast majority of game taken, the range is under 100 yards and using cast bullets will not limit your opportunities. If you hunt where you can get a 300 yard shot, things change.