Svarog Slugs...

[centershot]

Longbow,
If your barrel will accept tubes, get a rifled choke tube and see wat it does for you. I recently picked up a Carlson's extended rifled tube for my smoothbore 870. I tried my sabot loads through it with a variety of chokes but couldn't keep the balls on the paper at 50 yds. Best I could do was a 4" group at 25 yds. with the modified tube in place. With the rifled tube that same load gave me 2-1/2" to 3" groups at 50 yds, almost as good as my rifled barrel on my Mossberg 500. I was thrilled! The only ammo that grouped well in that gun was Remington Sluggers and Federal TruBalls, the full speed stuff. My sabot runs 1300 fps, so much easier to shoot! If your barrel's threaded, give it a try, you might be really happy !

[longbow]

Therein lies the problem! None of my shotguns are threaded for choke tubes.

Last time I checked cost to team and thread was $180! A rifled barrel is $389! A brand new Mossberg 2 barrel combo with fully rifled barrel is $549.

I'd buy a new two barrel combo before I paid $389 for just a barrel.

I do have a silver solder on choke tube adapter that I have not gotten installed yet and a rifled choke tube. I do have to get that done.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

I watched a YouTube video the other day of a guy (Buffalo's Outdoors) shooting a Beretta Extrema 2 ( .732 bore) with a Carlson rifled choke.
The shells were Federal Power Shock, and the result was pretty impressive - to put it mildly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzWK...lo%27sOutdoors

For less than fifty buck you'll be up an running once you get a threaded bushing on your barrel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Carlson Rifled Choke Tube $54 (L) IC Choke Tube (R)

Randy

[longbow]

That is pretty impressive accuracy! Especially for a rifled choke tube. I have read pros and cons of rifled choke tube but came to the conclusion that if they worked well there would not be so many rifled barrels around. Faulty logic? Maybe.

It took Fosbery some time and lots of testing to come up with the Paradox rifling for his guns marketed by H&H. He used ratchet rifling in a choked muzzle that gave quite a squeeze down on those big Paradox bullets. I have had trouble finding info on the rifling twist Fosbery used and have read 1:38" to 1:72" or slower. Since the slugs were not much longer than they are in diameter a slowish twist of 1:72" or so should be plenty to stabilize them. A 12 bore ball wants about 1:120" twist which would also be right for a "square" cylindrical slug.

In any case, several years ago I made a rifling machine to make rifled choke tubes up to about 6" long. I tested it on a piece of steel 3/4" pipe and it worked just fine. I posted that here with pics but may have deleted then due to lack of space. I bought a blank choke tube then bored it to 0.690" and proceeded to rifle it. Unfortunately these new choke tubes are heat treated stainless steel which work hardens. I got rifling started but the cutter just wasn't up to cutting the SS fast enough/deep enough per cut to avoid the work hardening so rifling wasn't progressing. I remade the cutter to a hook type single tooth cutter which worked much better but... it caught, jammed and pulled the choke tube out of time without me realizing it so once unjammed I munched the rifling I had started. After that life got in the way and the choke tube dropped in priority. I have as yet to get back to it. My intent was to make a deep rifled narrow land slow twist choke tube of 1:72" twist to better suit full bore round balls and square slugs. Modern rifled choke tubes run about 1:36"/1:38" so fast for round ball and very shallow rifling.

Not arguing that Buffalo's Outdoors choke tube didn't work, just that if they were all that good we wouldn't be seeing so many fully rifled barrels.

That and my goal was to try to reproduce the Paradox idea so the gun is suitable for slugs, buckshot or birdshot by just changing a choke tube rather than having a specialized rifled barrel. If I had a gun threaded for choke tubes I would have tried this long ago. However, toy money was/is tight so I have been playing with the toys I have... or that I can make.

To try to get back on topic here, many of the Russian slugs are groove diameter so should shoot just fine from a rifled barrel (or maybe rifled choke tube) without a wad attached. Why wouldn't they? The only benefit I see for those and an attached wad is that you load a single unit of wad and slug whether screwed on like Svarog Zveroboy or press in like the Gualandi clone or Paradox.

So far I don't recall seeing any range testing of the Russian slugs without attached wads in rifled bore or rifled choke tube. Would a Zveroboy shoot well from rifled barrel with no attached wad?

I still like the idea of a smoothbore that will give me +/- 6" groups at 100 yards. That is good enough for me and it makes for a versatile gun that can handle slugs, Tri-Ball, buckshot or birdshot. A screw in choke tube that would give that or better 100 yard accuracy would be the next choice as all it takes is to change choke tube to go from slug to shot. A fully rifled barrel is more "specialized" and not high on my list of wants. However, a new Mossberg 2 or 3 barrel combo that included a rifled barrel isn't a huge investment so... maybe!

In the meantime I'll keep playing with my smoothbores and may have to add a Russian slug mould or two to my collection.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kent: the rifled choke tubes are a relatively new thing, and fully rifled barrels are much older. What is new about Rifled Barrels are the prices they are fetching. I paid $ 175 for my Hastings Barrel for my A5 and $125 for my Buck Special Smoothbore Barrel for that gun.

I also paid $125 for the 24" Rifled Barrel for my M500's. This was about 2 years ago for all of them, adn there was no scarcity of them back then. Now the Hastings Barrels for A5's are $375-500! and the Mossberg Barrels are $250 to 300. So interest in them has grown dramatically and I would suspect that "US" and Taofledermous have had some influence on that. There are lots of people who are "read only" members of this site, and I see them as contributing to the scarcity of these barrels as well.

I just missed a M500 18" Smoothbore Barrel with Rifle Sights last week that went for $174 on Gunbroker. I paid @$100 for the one I have and then spent another $150 getting it "Vang Comped.!" I haven't seen one of those on Ebay for some time.

Randy

[longbow]

I haven't quite given up on smoothbore yet! Still slogging away.

The Russian slugs are pretty interesting and I may just have to get a mould or two. The Svarog sources I see tend to be a bit more pricey than AS-Moulds but I'd have to look at all the extras and shipping a little closer to be sure. Seems to me at least one site I looed at the Svarog moulds were free shipping.

I am liking the idea of screw on brush wads like the Zveroboy but I think I'd rather have a solid. BT recommended the Twister with all pins and if it has a "solid" pin (has to be HP for the screw) rather than segmented I guess I'd go that route.

In all honesty I have been a COVID hermit and haven't been out shooting for some time. Haven't done much outside the house and property for some time! I need to get a slug fix soon!

I have quite a few slugs loaded for testing so just have to get toit. I have also been thinking of trying the brush wads screw onto one of my slugs like the Nessler. I can drill through the slug then run a screw in from the nose more or less Svarog style I could also do base pour with an HP for the screw.

A benefit of the Russian slugs is that they supposedly work out of both smoothbore and rifled gun.

Yeah... you guys in the States get a lot more options especially for used guns and accessories. I saw a good deal a while ago on a used Remington Super Slug gun complete with scope but that was about the time you talked me into the Mossberg... not that I'm blaming you for a missed fully rifled slug gun, I do actually like the Mossberg so have been keeping my eyes open for good used deals. Not much to be had in Canada right now that I've found anyway. The best deal I see if the Mossberg two or three barrel combos new. It's hard to argue about a new gun with two barrels (one rifled) for $549.00 CDN. I think I'd prefer the three barrel combo though and for another hundred bucks... Well, Christmas is coming, time to start a list!

Longbow

[Petander]

Got some wads from Svarog today.

20 gauge "brush wad" is not foolproof with Zveroboy, I'm still going to drill pilot holes to make sure they center. You can see the yellow one is sitting crooked, I just quickly screwed them on by hand for the pic.

12 gauge "Azot" wads are perfect, they snap on with bare fingers and leave no gap like the old white ones.

[longbow]

Those look nice! The slugs are bright enough you can probably see them like tracers!

I like the screw on brush wads. I'll have to try that. My Nessler Balle clone is a good candidate for those wads.

Is there a pin for Zveroboy or Twister moulds that makes just HP for the screw but no segments?

Longbow

[Petander]

Is there a pin for Zveroboy or Twister moulds that makes just HP for the screw but no segments?

Longbow

My 12 gauge Zveroboy has a HP pin. My 20 gauge Zveroboy is only segmented. AS "grizzly" is almost like Zveroboy HP...I think... soon will see.

[longbow]

Hmmmm... I don't really want or need the segmented version though it seems to work for those who use it, like BT. Seems to me that a "solid" slug is quite adequate. Zveroboy, Twister or Grizzly (or Grizzly shock to get both pins) suits me fine if I have an HP pin. The 6 segment must make a mess of melons or pumpkins so that does have its merits but mostly I'd just want a "solid" screw on wad slug.

I do like the screw on wad idea and on that note while I was looking for other info I found an old thread where Elvas had drilled through Lyman sabot slugs and used the screw on brush wads quite successfully.

It is a good idea! First I saw it was for Svarog Zveroboy.

Longbow

[Petander]

Zveroboy 20 gauge first test batch. These are not "premium" quality cast but from my earlier sessions. Good for some velo / pressure basic check.

I will see with 870 cylinder and / or rifled choke first.

[Petander]

Starting low,these went 1200 fps.



Some chrono shots hit the steel trap back there on the left. Gave me some hope.

I then went and fired seven shots @ 25 meters, standing.



Keyholing? Or do they break on impact , target is cardboard,not paper. I had an even milder load to start with, bad vertical spread there. I need to verify my wad pilot hole centering... notice the cork at 6 o' clock.

Anyway. To be continued,possibly on a new thread.


Edit:

Oh and this is Carlsons rifled choke. It was on so I figured I might as well start with it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd say those are pretty encouraging results.

Rifle Sights on the gun might help a little and Williams makes ones that clamp on to you Vent Rib. I used them on my gun.

Randy

[Petander]

1500 fps today:



I fired five rds @ 25 meters again. Kneeled position. Back was hurting like hell, I did something wrong in the morning... but I started thinking about our Winter War against Russia and shooting went ok.

This load also adjusted itself to the POI:



Randy, I have a red dot:



To be continued. I may be on the "Sweet Spot" already but 1700 fps is tempting... only 350 grain slug.

[W.R.Buchanan]

So 470 MPS is @1550 fps? I'd be pretty happy with those results.

What you have going on right now with that gun is pretty damn good. You've got a Carlson's Rifled Choke Tube which is performing well,,, Time to go out farther and see what happens at 50-75 Yards/Meters.

Also the quality of your slugs and subsequent reloads will improve as well.

I think you are on your way to One Hole Accuracy!

Randy

[longbow]

That is looking very good!

[Petander]

Yes bench & 50 meters next.

I'll hold my horses about more velocity for now. Stars are aligned pretty good here.

I wonder what velocity Blood Trail is using with his AS -version?

EDIT: Found it:

The 20 ga won. This isn’t a fast, blazing load. Only moving at a little over 1200 fps, it easily dispatched this brute.

[Keith]

I have the Paradox mold with the 3 inserts. I used the one that gives a pin sticking out in the base of the slug for the wad to fit on. I got white wads but a few of them wont go on. I see they have red ones too. Are these a better fit? If so where can I buy them from an English speaking web site? Another pin goes right through the slug for a different wad that must screw on from the front. What are these called and are they any better?
Thanks.
Keith

[longbow]

The wads that screw in will be the double ended brush wads:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/BR...info/072BRP12/

"Normally" these are screwed onto Zveroboy or Twister (or similar) slugs which generally have a hollow point and flat base. There is a pin that makes a hole right through for a screw that goes through the base of the slug and upper deck of the wad so the cushion leg still works.

These seem to provide good accuracy from rifled guns. They should also work from smoothbore since they would be weight forward designs.

I don't recall seeing any posts on shooting them from smoothbore though.

Before the Ukraine fiasco I was planning on buying a Russian mould to try with brush wads. I have an aversion to proprietary stuff so not interested in the special wads. The brush wads are readily available.

Longbow