Recoil difference between the .40 S&W and 9mm in Glock mid-sized pistols.

[FergusonTO35]

It's a valid premise, and it cuts to the core of why I'm such an ardent .40-basher in the first place. There's enough mass and energy potential in the .40 IF YOU USE IT RIGHT, and the designers of the round really didn't. The .40 grew out of an era with lots of obsession over foot pounds and energy transfer which were both largely debunked by the time the .40 was just starting to stock the shelves. That's certainly why it commonly gets loaded at "Formula 1 compression ratios" with bullets that open very large for their starting diameter. The standard training and duty loads we used were 180 grains at about 1000 fps. They would have done very well with 900fps and a little bit less expansion on the bullet to improve the penetration - slightly - to get it up into the deeper half of the FBI's "ideal" 12-18" range. The .45 bullets could do with a bit of the same treatment - the .90 to 1.0 caliber mushrooms are impressive to look at, but they aren't very deep divers.

The irony here is that has them all ending up at about the same place. All three cartridges as they currently exist are delivering something close enough to 400 foot pounds as makes no difference (if you're into that), and all three of them in FMJ format can penetrate A LOT more than we need them to - plenty of energy to manipulate to our liking. A series of well-engineered duty loads for the trio would expand to between .65 and .85 caliber, and stop in about 15"-17" inches of bare gel.

My gripe with the .40 as it has been loaded (and many of the guns it was loaded in) is that it accelerates the wear and compromises reliability of equipment sooner without bringing anything extra of use to the party. Never mind the bashing and whiplashing on the "hard parts" - if you have to keep changing recoil and mag springs just to keep the timing of round feed workable (especially considering varying sizes of shooters or their grip on the gun being compromised by the situation), while the 9mm versions of the same stay in tolerance and keep chugging on practically forever, the system needs some help.

Due to the foot-pounds/energy-transfer mania of the late 1980's, the designers of the .40 were trying for 10mm Minus P, and we're now coming around to the conclusion that we'd not experience any terminal performance loss by using a properly constructed "10mm Double-Minus P". We're also realizing that we'd be picking up some significant benefits in shooter performance and weapon longevity as well. That this cartridge already exists in the form of the modern 147 grain 9mm duty load is the reason for the .40's current decline - mainly on an institutional scale, but the commercial side is following.

Now, all that said, making the above adjustments to the .40 bullet designs and pressure levels would be a GREAT move for anybody that's retaining a stake in the round. The reality is that we're seeing fewer new guns made for it (ESPECIALLY in compacts), discontinuance of some of the old, and dialing back of spare parts production for that which is out there. Beating your guns up with the ammo concepts of yesteryear makes little sense. Might be worth lobbying the ammo companies to see reason.

Along similar lines, it might be worth lobbying the various action pistol competition disciplines that "making major" to maintain differentiation between the "more effective" .45 and the "less effective" 9mm is an outmoded concept. It may need to be adjusted somewhat to ensure the game is played with tactically-effective power levels and keep out the gamers with their muzzle-braked .22 Shorts, but as it has been traditionally measured, it only really matters to the bowling pin guys.

I like the way you think, but it would really take a marketing Einstein to convince the ammo buying masses that MORE POWAH is not what they should be shopping for. Especially given that is the reason most of them chose the .40 over the 9 in the first place.

[FergusonTO35]

Lloyd you can back off a tenth of a grain or two but not two grains. The Max/Min charge for both the 9MM and 40cal in the Hogdon Reloading site is less than 1 grain for the 125 and 180 grain bullets.

Your point is well taken on the face of it load lighter for less recoil. You can also load heavier for caliber bullets to reduce felt recoil significantly. Folks up here are loading 158 gr bullets into their 9MM guns to shoot steel matches. They play with lighter recoil springs and the search goes on. I can't be bothered frankly. At 76 I am happy now to finish mid pack at local matches and I am good with that. I have to many friends who now shoot on Heavens range to concern myself with wood on the walls.

I do think though even loading at the lighter end of the 40 cal still results in a snappy loads. As a noted English Judge wrote several centuries ago you cannot put yourself in the place of the accused when assessing self defense. ..so to the effect on recoil on an individual. Personally for handgun, full charges of Ruger only in the 45Colt are not going to be felt by me anymore. If 8 gr of Unique won't do the job at hand in 45 Colt I need a rifle or a shotgun with slugs. With new shoulders I still enjoy 12 gauge trap loads but 3" steel not so much. I still bang away with my Longbranch but would avoid a light carbine in 30-06. Different strokes for different folks. As the song says, "Walk a mile in my shoes...."

Take Care

Bob

Oftentimes, you just have to get creative. My pet loads for the .40 are not to be found in any manual, at least not with these exact components. The nice thing is that it is seldom hazardous to reduce charges, and you can often find some really sweet loads by doing so. My favorite .30-30 load is 30 grains IMR 4064 under a 150 grain Sierra, Hodgdon says to use 31-33.3. This load is more accurate than factory ammo in all of my rifles and kills things just as dead. I really like 37 grains IMR 4895 under any 180 grain slug in my Browning BLR .308. It is accurate and pleasant to shoot which can't be said about most 180 grain loads in this rifle. My .257 Roberts is deadly with .250 Savage level loads, as in single hole at 100 yards accurate. The dummy pulling the trigger is the only limiting factor!

[Cosmic_Charlie]

The thing about the .40 SW is limited case capacity. That along with a heavy bullet makes for sharp recoil impulse. I shoot a good amount of .44 mag with a 275 gr. boolit going about 1165 and it is not at all unpleasant. With that big case the pressure curve is longer and I think it makes all the difference. Our local PD switched to .40 about 20 years ago and pretty quickly went back to 9mm because so many of their officers could not shoot them well. Think the guns were SW Sigmas but the started calling them smegmas.

[Idaho45guy]

Oftentimes, you just have to get creative. My pet loads for the .40 are not to be found in any manual, at least not with these exact components. The nice thing is that it is seldom hazardous to reduce charges, and you can often find some really sweet loads by doing so. My favorite .30-30 load is 30 grains IMR 4064 under a 150 grain Sierra, Hodgdon says to use 31-33.3. This load is more accurate than factory ammo in all of my rifles and kills things just as dead. I really like 37 grains IMR 4895 under any 180 grain slug in my Browning BLR .308. It is accurate and pleasant to shoot which can't be said about most 180 grain loads in this rifle. My .257 Roberts is deadly with .250 Savage level loads, as in single hole at 100 yards accurate. The dummy pulling the trigger is the only limiting factor!

I used to shoot .40 S&W in GSSF matches and loaded my own pet loads that were about a grain under the minimum. They were accurate and cycled the action. 9mm off-the-shelf loads were more harsh than my .40 S&W match loads.

[Lloyd Smale]

I used to shoot .40 S&W in GSSF matches and loaded my own pet loads that were about a grain under the minimum. They were accurate and cycled the action. 9mm off-the-shelf loads were more harsh than my .40 S&W match loads.

amazing what handloading will let you do. I havent bought a box of factory ammo in 30 years. Ive had a few given to me but i cringe even buying jacketed bullets to load for self defense loads. Ill add to that that the loads that got the 40 its snappy reputation have been watered down over the years.

[Lloyd Smale]

Oftentimes, you just have to get creative. My pet loads for the .40 are not to be found in any manual, at least not with these exact components. The nice thing is that it is seldom hazardous to reduce charges, and you can often find some really sweet loads by doing so. My favorite .30-30 load is 30 grains IMR 4064 under a 150 grain Sierra, Hodgdon says to use 31-33.3. This load is more accurate than factory ammo in all of my rifles and kills things just as dead. I really like 37 grains IMR 4895 under any 180 grain slug in my Browning BLR .308. It is accurate and pleasant to shoot which can't be said about most 180 grain loads in this rifle. My .257 Roberts is deadly with .250 Savage level loads, as in single hole at 100 yards accurate. The dummy pulling the trigger is the only limiting factor!

had to chuckle this summer. Good example of its all in your head! I had my chrono set up at the range one day checking some loads and my buddy who i do crop damage shooting with showed up. He had a new 308 77 hawkeye. He mostly shoots a 2506 and his 6.5 creedmore. He had along his 3006 too to make sure it was zero'd. He told me he bought that 308 because it just kicked alot less then his o6 does. He shoots mostly factory ammo. I looked at what he had and he had 150 fed premium 308 and some 150 corelock 06. he told me he popped off a few rounds off the back porch the day before and it was much more pleasant then his o6. Well if youve ever shot 06s over a chrono youd know that factory ammo is VERY watered down. 150 corelocks are hard pressed to give more then 2700 fps and most book loads are just as bad and run about the same. we chrono'd both and his new 308 actually had a 5 shot average 25 fps higher then the 06. Now to be honest if we would have used corelocks in both that would have probably ended up the other way but 25fps!!! Thats nothing.

Id about bet i could take most who dont shoot every week out to the range with a glock 23 and a glock 19 every weekend for a year and have them guess which they were shooting and id about bet theyd be wrong as often as right. One reason is what Idaho45 probably ran into. With the big comeback of the 9 and the "9 is just as effective as the 40" BS is 9mm ammo is loaded up to its max. Most times you will never beat it with handloads. The 40 on the other hand is the forgotten child and doesnt get all the new high tech powders ect and can easily be beat by handloading.

Last handgun i bought really made me chuckle. Its my 3rd 22 glock. Seems nobody wants them and imo there probably the best combat handgun made. Not a ccw gun but if shtf and i wanted a handgun to carry on my hip that would be the one. He said the 40 was just to much for him and he was going to buy a 9. I didnt argue because he was about giving it away. He came over a week later to show off his new gun. A glock 43! About half the size and i own both and will tell you flat out that the 22 is much more comfortable to shoot with full power loads as the 43 is with full power 9s. But he said the 43 is a ***** cat. Point in all of this? Recoil is much more a mental thing then a physical. People read forums like this and hear everyone saying the 40 kicks like a mule and convince themselves so much so that they even believe it when they shoot one. Doesnt matter the platform those dern 40s just KICK. Like i said ive even heard it from guys that shoot 357s and 44 mags. Oh well I guess there sure not hurting me. Matter of fact I got that one 22 from someone believing that bs and two more and a 23 because the prison system up here decided to go with 19s instead. Wish theyd decide they kick to much and go to 380s because i really like my 19 and wouldnt mind another one at half price.

[Bigslug]

I like the way you think, but it would really take a marketing Einstein to convince the ammo buying masses that MORE POWAH is not what they should be shopping for. Especially given that is the reason most of them chose the .40 over the 9 in the first place.

Well. . .when their guns crumble to dust it'll certainly streamline the production lines for Federal and Winchester, lowering the production cost of the stuff folks are still shooting. That's a valid strategy too!

[Bigslug]

Lloyd, I would like to ask you what metric you are using to say the 9mm is NOT as effective as the .40, given apples to apples ammo.

Energy? If a boxer popped you with the foot pounds of either, you probably couldn't tell the 20 or so that separates them apart.

Diameter? Call it a tenth of an inch difference, maybe two, by the time the expansion is done with. If we're not expanding, then it's .05" or the difference in meplat you can get to feed.

Impact velocity? Enough overlap here that it's probably not worth discussing, but disruption of tissue by rapid displacement isn't much of a thing at the speeds either can attain..

Penetration? The 147 grain HP's consistently go deeper than the 180's do on all the formal barrier tests save auto sheet metal (where the noses collapse and they behave like FMJ, running to the end of the gel blocks), and auto glass (where they're both severely compromised to practically identical levels) - which works out to added wound volume and greater chance of transecting something important.

You're right on recoil being subjective - - to a point. The wear and tear on the .40 caliber platforms is no myth. In the Glocks, you want to be changing recoil and often mag springs every couple thousand rounds vs. the 9mm's. . .where maybe get around to it at some point in the next couple decades. . .if you feel like it. The objective side is that the .40 delivers 30-40% more recoil by the numbers, and all of the energy that causes the wear to the gun ends up in your arm. At that point, we're talking about "exceeding design tolerances" of the body, just like we are in the pistols. If you're a big, young guy that still has nice squishy cartilage in his joints, have fun. Less body mass and/or age - - it's probably less damaging to find a nice dominatrix to spank you if pain from repetitive blows is something you enjoy.

Short version: both cars will get you to the same destination, with the .40 consuming more tires, gas, brake pads, etc..., and requiring more driver rest stops along the way. There is no B.S. behind the justifications for it's decline.

[44MAG#1]

Here we go with "WHICH IS BEST", "WHICH HAS MORE STOPPING POWER", "WHICH HAS MORE KNOCKDOWN", debate, argument, discussion.
Did anyone see it coming? I sure did. How could it not happen?

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd, I would like to ask you what metric you are using to say the 9mm is NOT as effective as the .40, given apples to apples ammo.

Energy? If a boxer popped you with the foot pounds of either, you probably couldn't tell the 20 or so that separates them apart.

Diameter? Call it a tenth of an inch difference, maybe two, by the time the expansion is done with. If we're not expanding, then it's .05" or the difference in meplat you can get to feed.

Impact velocity? Enough overlap here that it's probably not worth discussing, but disruption of tissue by rapid displacement isn't much of a thing at the speeds either can attain..

Penetration? The 147 grain HP's consistently go deeper than the 180's do on all the formal barrier tests save auto sheet metal (where the noses collapse and they behave like FMJ, running to the end of the gel blocks), and auto glass (where they're both severely compromised to practically identical levels) - which works out to added wound volume and greater chance of transecting something important.

You're right on recoil being subjective - - to a point. The wear and tear on the .40 caliber platforms is no myth. In the Glocks, you want to be changing recoil and often mag springs every couple thousand rounds vs. the 9mm's. . .where maybe get around to it at some point in the next couple decades. . .if you feel like it. The objective side is that the .40 delivers 30-40% more recoil by the numbers, and all of the energy that causes the wear to the gun ends up in your arm. At that point, we're talking about "exceeding design tolerances" of the body, just like we are in the pistols. If you're a big, young guy that still has nice squishy cartilage in his joints, have fun. Less body mass and/or age - - it's probably less damaging to find a nice dominatrix to spank you if pain from repetitive blows is something you enjoy.

Short version: both cars will get you to the same destination, with the .40 consuming more tires, gas, brake pads, etc..., and requiring more driver rest stops along the way. There is no B.S. behind the justifications for it's decline.

easy what is more powerful a 357 mag or a 41 mag. that a 40 is more powerful and effective isnt even a point worth arguing. Using your train of thought we might as well chuck the 44 mag and the 454 475 and 500s because if you hit something in the eyeball with a 9mm it will kill id dead. By the way one of my glock 22s and my glock 23 have at least 20k on them and i wouldnt doubt the 23 has double that and the same recoil spring glock put in it at the factory is still going strong and ive NEVER had to replace a spring in a glock magazine. Ive had to fart with them in the cheap aftermarket mags but NEVER a glock factory mag. Ill add to that every mag i have in the house is stuffed full and left that way till its used and put away loaded when im done.

Yup your car analogy is right a prius will get you to the grocery store and get 30mpg doing it. My 392 challenger will do it to and get 25 mpg (with my wife driving) Gets stuck behind a couple semis going 50 on a two lane and which would you rather pass with. Lots of this comes down to that though. Theres some here that just arent gun nuts. There happy with two or three pistols. Most if honest probably dont even average a 100 rounds a month. Me? Im a gun nut. I love them all. I shoot the snot our of all of them. Ive killed more game with handguns then most here have killed with rifles. Im passionate about my hobbys be they guns, cars, boats, atvs, snowmobiles ect and dont settle and dont try to pretend one is something its not. I love my challenger. The 392 is quick but i dont go on a challenger fourm and try to claim it will do anything a hellcat will. Nothing at all wrong with a 9mm. Ill repeat it for about the 100th time on here. I shoot probably more 9mm ammo then every other caliber combined. But i know what it is and what it isnt. I also dont bash a hell cat because its so powerful i cant handle it. Bottom line is it makes a dammed fine grocery getter too. Im out of this one now. Hate to argue at my first rodeo

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well I would expect with all that more recoil there is also more out the other end also , but everyone can use what they want 9mm or 40 or 45 , and it seems that with the 9mm it always takes more hits then bigger calibers so get those high capacity magazines and bang away as it will consume more powder lead and those easy to get primers .

Still wondering about the dominatrix though where that came from , oh well I am still a young guy and do not understand why someone wants spanked .

[44MAG#1]

This is going to be a real ride.
Sit down, buckle up and hang on.

[Idaho45guy]

This is going to be a real ride.
Sit down, buckle up and hang on.

Don't blame me; I just offered actual video evidence of the difference in recoil, lol.

[44MAG#1]

Don't blame me; I just offered actual video evidence of the difference in recoil, lol.

Well, sometimes it doesn't take much to cause an uproar.

[Idaho45guy]

And to throw gas on the fire, I just got back from the range doing the same recoil tests but using a G19, P365, XDS 40, and a G29.

Will take hours to process it all, but the initial impression was what you would expect; recoil was least in the G19 and worst in the G29.

But, then I thought it would be interesting to see how accurately and quickly I could fire all four pistols at 7 yards. Still waiting for the video to load so I can do accurate timing, but all were pretty close together as far as how quickly I could get 5 shots on paper.

But what blew me away was the winner. The G29 was the most accurate by far with a 2 1/8" group. 2nd was the P365 at 2 3/4", third was likely the XDS 40, but the last shot went off paper so no way to confirm. The least accurate? The G19, which was the lightest recoiling and largest pistol. But, that may have had to do with the sight, which was a red dot, and I totally lost sight of the dot on the bright white target.

But still, the G29 had to be a fluke. So I shot it again. And again, it got a 2 1/8" group. Both times recorded on video.

Photos are done, at least...

All 4 targets...

Attachment 289056

Then the two G29 targets...

Attachment 289057

[44MAG#1]

I edited my post even more as I didn't want add anything to this nonsense concerning recoil or the 40 S&W verses 9MM.

[Catshooter]

Lloyd,

Empty out your Glocks, point the muzzle straight up, pull the trigger. Now holding the trigger back still, pull the slide all the way back. Now slowly ease it forward, gently. Does it close all the way? If so, you're golden. If not, if just doesn't quite lock up the recoil spring is past it's useful life. This is the correct, factory approved test.

And I can tell you, if you've got 20K + on a recoil spring you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past due for a change. Knowing you I expect you'll report perfect performance: it's all good. But at 30 or 40K on one spring you're battering the hell out of the frame.

Just FYI.


Cat

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd,

Empty out your Glocks, point the muzzle straight up, pull the trigger. Now holding the trigger back still, pull the slide all the way back. Now slowly ease it forward, gently. Does it close all the way? If so, you're golden. If not, if just doesn't quite lock up the recoil spring is past it's useful life. This is the correct, factory approved test.

And I can tell you, if you've got 20K + on a recoil spring you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past due for a change. Knowing you I expect you'll report perfect performance: it's all good. But at 30 or 40K on one spring you're battering the hell out of the frame.

Just FYI.


Cat

so you think i will lie?????????? I can guarantee you one thing. Theres people on here that will say they disagree with me and probably some that dont like me but you wont find a single person that will say I WOULD EVER lie.

[Lloyd Smale]

And to throw gas on the fire, I just got back from the range doing the same recoil tests but using a G19, P365, XDS 40, and a G29.

Will take hours to process it all, but the initial impression was what you would expect; recoil was least in the G19 and worst in the G29.

But, then I thought it would be interesting to see how accurately and quickly I could fire all four pistols at 7 yards. Still waiting for the video to load so I can do accurate timing, but all were pretty close together as far as how quickly I could get 5 shots on paper.

But what blew me away was the winner. The G29 was the most accurate by far with a 2 1/8" group. 2nd was the P365 at 2 3/4", third was likely the XDS 40, but the last shot went off paper so no way to confirm. The least accurate? The G19, which was the lightest recoiling and largest pistol. But, that may have had to do with the sight, which was a red dot, and I totally lost sight of the dot on the bright white target.

But still, the G29 had to be a fluke. So I shot it again. And again, it got a 2 1/8" group. Both times recorded on video.

Photos are done, at least...

All 4 targets...

Attachment 289056

Then the two G29 targets...

Attachment 289057

had to chuckle ive got a bunch of glocks and have owned many more. Out of all of them the most accurate one ive ever owned is my 29. Cant say i really like the gun. Without ext mags its just doesnt work with my big hands. But it shoots way better then it should and i keep it for that reason. 26's and 27's are the same but ive had two 26's and one 27 and none of them shot well enough to keep to justify keeping. Tell you what id really love glock to make is something close to the size of a 43 in 40sw.

[Bigslug]

so you think i will lie?????????? I can guarantee you one thing. Theres people on here that will say they disagree with me and probably some that dont like me but you wont find a single person that will say I WOULD EVER lie.

I think what he's saying is you should perform a function check on your pistols. I would also suggest you take your slide off, pull your firing pin the rear, then push it forward to see if it clicks past the firing pin safety. The FP and FPS on the G3 and G4 .40's have a tendency to batter each other where they interface. I have replaced significant quantities of both. It seems to be worse in the 22's than the 23's and 27's.

If you've got a Gen 3 Glock .40 that's been lubricated with water from the Fountain of Youth, we're happy for you and would like to know where to buy a bottle of the stuff. For estimate's sake, 20,000 rounds of .40 is a solid 10 .50 cal ammo cans filled to the top. If I haven't changed a recoil spring ever, by the time I got to the bottom of the second one, I'd be looking for broken locking block pins, and FP and FPS interface battered. At some point in that party, I'd expect rounds nose-diving in the mags against their tired springs and sticking against the bottom of the feed ramp. Less frequent occurrences might be broken locking blocks (depending on exact production date), a snapped trigger spring (later trigger bars were easier on them), broken frame rails (always the left rear, for some reason), and snapped springs on the slide stop lever. I personally added a snapped trigger pin (early in my secondhand ownership) and cracked frame above the locking pin hole to the list (much closer to it's retirement).

So if you're up to that kind of round count, all on the original OEM parts, and the gun still runs reliably, I'd like to know what you either are or are not doing differently. Pretty much all 180 grains at 1000 fps in my shop.