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Thread: Vintage 22 Rifles / iron sights / 50 yds / 'Good Groups' ?

  1. #161
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    I have grand-dad's old Mossberg M-42B and despite it's looks and wear, it's still a surprising good shooter considering the not so friendly sights on it.

  2. #162
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Parts arrived a couple days ago...for the Wards Western Field 46D...



    I had planned to use a post/bead front sight so I could have the same sight picture I get on the Rem. 33-P but even at this height, it was still too short. My option was to mount the Williams Globe front sight and that was what had to happen. It seems that this rifle doesn't have a standard 3/8's dovetail for the front end, it is slightly smaller so it took some file work on the Williams base to get the base to fit.
    Got that done and set up on the 25 yard line first...



    I sorta dialed it in...I was in a hurry to move back to the 50.



    It took some adjustment to center the sights up better...this was not going to be the quick sight change I thought it would be. I was having trouble.
    The first time on the 50 with the peep & globe is the second card here. The first card was shot with the iron sights...



    Not very impressive. I could see right off that I needed a custom cheek rest, I am all over this comb searching for an anchor and it was not to be. Here like with the CZ452 and the Sav. MKII I have to improvise a cheek rest and modify this until I have it just right. I will shim the carpenters pencil again until I have it parallel to the barrel. Then I'll make one to add to the comb of this rifle for keeps.



    In the card below you can see the 'associations of rounds' (LOL - I can't call'em groups yet!) are roving all over the spot. This is me searching for that perfect and repeatable anchor for the cheek weld.



    I had taken the adjustable iris peep off the MKII to try it here on the 46D but I'm not sure I'll order one for this rifle...I think I need a fixed .040" aperture.
    Harry Tobin made me several inserts to use with the stock aperture that Williams sends with this unit. I will most like use one of Harry's creations.





    They just slip right into the back of the Williams .050" aperture and reduce it to .040"...that's the aperture size on the Rem. 33-P and I like it even in dim light.



    So, that's the progress for now...I'm going to have to put some work into this 46D if I'm ever going to show some good groups that are better than these 'associations of rounds' that I showed here today ...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  3. #163
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    If it was easy, anybody could do it. You are doing better than you think.

  4. #164
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Charlie, I cannot remember if you tried this. Some people do not use a check weld and say they shoot better groups that way. One less thing to get "right".

    I tried it with my PCP rifle when I was struggling, and it did not help me at all. Once I started shooting decent groups the "normal" way I gave up on the technique. Spending the last 60+ years with my cheek somewhere on the stock is a tough habit to break for this old dog. But I may try it again in the spring. Just too damn cold to shoot in MI now...15* this morning!!!
    Don Verna


  5. #165
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman... this is one of my favorite old rifles, I'm tickled to finally have it set up proper. Eventually I'll get'er done ...

    Don...when I bought the CZ452 it was set up for long range, tall scope mounts & no cheek rest. I tried to shoot it that way for a little while, I couldn't make it work for me, all I got was a literal pain in my neck from trying to keep my head from bobbing. That 36X scope has a short focal length, there's no room to be unsteady.
    Old Skool has done it to me also, I have to have a solid cheek weld.

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  6. #166
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I have a CZ452 Trainer that comes from the factory set up for iron sights. I have a scope on it with high rings to clear the rear sight.
    I have to shoot it with my cheek off the stock but I found out it likes it that way.

  7. #167
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    A GAME CHANGER...this 3-D printing that we have seen doing everything you can imagine just changed my little world here at home...AGAIN!

    As you have seen, I have been experimenting with the cheek rest with a carpenters pencil to get the height just right and then going to the table saw and router to shape what I needed to install on my BR rifles...











    Here again I am experimenting with the Wards 46D to get the right height & shape for a comb riser...



    Harry and I were talking on the phone yesterday and I asked about him printing one of these odd shapes. Asked if I were able to copy the shapes accurately, could he print a comb riser?
    Of course nothing daunts Harry...He stepped right up to the plate! Later in the afternoon he e-mailed this CAD drawing as an example...
    When I have the height correct so the riser is parallel to the barrel I'll send Harry the dimensions.
    I think I may be able to mount these risers with double sided tape, cushioning and shimming any imperfections and negating any need to use screws in these old vintage stocks. That I would like a great deal.

    So ... Harry Tobin ... "Your the best my friend, I don't deserve so much of your time & attention and effort but I sure do appreciate it!"

    charlie
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  8. #168
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Headed out to slay the dragon this morning... I have my cheek riser parallel to the bore, I've got the best of weather to test...but there's something here that's going to come back and bite me!



    It went well as far as reducing group size but it did not stop the meandering of the groups on the spot.
    Notice all the sight adjustments, that's not what I normally do in a test. I had a problem that was right under my nose and didn't see it.



    As I was packing up to take it all to the shop, I noticed the riser I had just shimmed. This explains why I made all the site adjustments. Why didn't I notice this right off the bat? I don't know other than my focus was on the sights and getting as perfect of a POA as possible.



    Well...this negates this test but it sure taught me a lesson...
    "PAY ATTENTION!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  9. #169
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    This should solve the collapsed spacer problem...a solid piece of wood...



    Still something is not right...I am firmly planted on the cheek rest now and still the groups are meandering and wide open?



    I may have a clue though...after shooting the first 6 targets I took the rifle to the shop and traded the globes out for a different configuration & shot the last 2 targets with it.
    I think I can see that 'eye ballancing thing' a little better with the globe outside diameter a little larger?
    Not sure but I'll find out this morning...it seems that there is a never ending set of tweaks to get a good rifle to shoot better & they mostly pertain to tweaking the shooter!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  10. #170
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Next morning, another trip in the rabbit hole... I don't know if it's my age, that I am forgetful of things these days...or...whether I get so focused on something that I neglect some of the lessons I've learned along the way?

    At least I have those little 'thoughts' that flicker for a moment and then disappear somewhere in the grey matter. I had the thought this morning that I should check the condition of the chamber with the bore scope to make sure that my morning swabbing of Hoppes is keeping the chamber clean.



    I had previously used the C4 BoreTech in this barrel to clean it well but had gone back to my morning routine of swabbing the chamber with Hoppes before I shoot. I had been assuming that the chamber would not have that build up of carbon.
    So I took a look at the fresh swabbed chamber, this is what I found...



    This can't be? I swab that chamber before each 40 shots of the day...the Hoppes can't allow this to happen! Or did it?
    I use the C4 again on a nylon brush, maybe 10 swipes in and out of the chamber alone and looked again...



    OK tazman...I've learned my lesson (this time). Is it habit or is it the familiar smell of Hopes that has been burned into memory since I was about 10 years old? Why do I still reach for that bottle for a chamber swab?
    Well...it won't happen anymore, reluctantly I put it back into the cabinet and only the C4 will remain on the bench.

    I patched up the target from the 29'th, placed it on the backstop and got back on the bench..."Dang-it man, this old rifle looks like it is a great shooter sitting there on the bags, it triggers so well, never has a hang-up cycling the rounds from the magazine...it is solid. But I am having to back up and re-learn things all over again, I'm having trouble doing my part!"



    Today's card was a calamity of errors. It was a perfect morning for shooting and as I do every time, I go out to 'slay the dragon' only to be caught up in something I am doing wrong...



    Still...no results as I had envisioned? I do see the 'so-called groups' (associations of rounds) are not coming together under an inch...they are a little more closely associated but not nearly what I expect to see!
    I have the cheek riser at the proper height but still it is not where I thought I'd be now. The only thing I can offer up as a 'possible reason' for this (other than myself just totally dropping the ball) is the fact that I have used all the Eley Contact that I got those great groups with using the Remington 33-P and now I am into a fresh batch of 4 bricks I ordered earlier last month.

    I suppose I should get the Crony out and see what this batch is doing ballistics-wise...that'd help to find the problem(s).
    Another thing I want to do is to use the dremel to shape a single post insert to resemble the front post-bead on the Rem. 33-P...



    This was an easy sight picture for me to work with...I think I'll be in the 'rabbit hole' for some time with this WWF 46D.
    That's OK...the only other thing I have to do these days is make War on lots of Mole Colonies!

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  11. #171
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    LOL!!!
    I have trouble learning some things until I have my nose rubbed in it myself. I bet you remember now.

    I am also familiar with the mole issue. I have a couple of overachieving/hyperactive moles here myself.
    What are you running down into the holes?
    I wonder if you could run the exhaust down into there and kill them with carbon monoxide?

  12. #172
    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    LOL!!!
    I have trouble learning some things until I have my nose rubbed in it myself. I bet you remember now.

    I am also familiar with the mole issue. I have a couple of overachieving/hyperactive moles here myself.
    What are you running down into the holes?
    I wonder if you could run the exhaust down into there and kill them with carbon monoxide?
    I've been having pretty good luck with the exhaust/carbon monoxide method. Don't really know if it kills them, or pushes them out to different area. Got no proof of death. jd
    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  13. #173
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Tazman & hoodat... That blue rubber hose is pluged into my exhaust of a 3 cylinder diesel in that yard buggy.
    I pour a couple ounces of Ammonia and a couple ounces of Clorox in the hose and plug it into the tail pipe.
    I run it for 5 minutes and reseal their holes up.
    It looks like I'm winning this fight. I keep all the little mounds raked flat so I can see quickly where the new activity is. They leave air holes cleverly hidden in the grass where they don't push dirt out, you have to be careful to locate them. Sometimes they leave a little spill where they push through but most of the time it's less than a coffee cup full.



    These are tough lil'Buggers!

    Baby Girl and Max kill their fair share but they leave God Awful trenches and holes in the yard...when I go to mow it's back jarring.



    Right now I'm just making war in the 4 acres I have fenced for the dogs, I have a 2 acre pasture that I have to tackle next.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  14. #174
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I have half a city block here. The moles only infest one end of it, thankfully. That end has a sand slope, but they will sometimes work their way down to the black dirt around a couple of the trees.
    Not uncommon to get up and find as many as ten new hills pushed up. My lawn mower flattens them out but I don't like doing it that way. The front of the mower deck will flatten the hill but the blade always picks up some of the loose dirt.

  15. #175
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Well...not much progress to report tonight... I have been searching for the right globe or post combination with the peep that'd work for me but no success yet.
    This is the last shape I shot this morning...



    Thinking that sharp point would be more exact in the POA but my eyesight is the limiting factor. The light has been plentiful but I just haven't found the right globe/post insert yet.
    I have used one of Harry's peep inserts for the peep and drilled it out to .040" and snapped it into the .050" peep but that was too restrictive and I got too much diffraction. That made the sharp point on the post fuzzy and you can see I strung them vertically pretty bad.



    Even this combination hasn't worked, I didn't even bother to measure the groups...I've decided to keep trying combinations of front globe/post and rear peep diameters until I find the right combination...then I'll get back down to working a small group if I can do so? I have high hopes for this old rifle.



    I had another AD on bolt closure this morning, I thought I had cured that by cleaning the bolt inside and out and re-lubing ... this was about 1/2 through the card.
    I stopped everything and took the rifle in the shop and tore it down again. I decided to reface the worn sear on the trigger and get a fresh face on it. After 80 years of shooting in these old vintage rifles the sears tend to wear against each other and the harder part tends to round-over the other part.
    I got that done and went back out to finish the card but as you can see I didn't make any grouping improvements.
    At least the sear problem is over...no more AD's!

    EDIT...I mentioned the other day that I wanted to take the chrony out and see what this new batch of 4 bricks of Eley Contact was doing ballistically.

    Here's the numbers for a 38 shot string done on the 1'st of Dec.

    High....................... 1173
    Low........................ 1043
    Average.................. 1077
    Extreme Spread....... 74
    Standard Deviation... 16

    The last time I chrono'd a long string (40 shots) of Eley Contact was 7-2-21 and that was the 4 bricks I've been using since and just ran out of...

    High....................... 1101
    Low........................ 1031
    Average.................. 1073
    Extreme Spread....... 70
    Standard Deviation... 16

    Fairly consistent ammo for $4.75 a box.
    Last edited by OS OK; 12-03-2021 at 04:40 AM.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  16. #176
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    That post should give you a more precise aiming point, but only if you can see it clearly.
    I am well aware of the limiting factor of eyesight. My eyes will no longer allow me to use open sights or peep sights effectively except under very specific limited circumstances.
    Even when your eyes allow it, open sight configurations are a very personal thing. What works well for one person may not work for another, hence all the choices that are available.
    I wish you luck on your search for that perfect combination and envy your ability to use them as well as you do.
    For anything approaching precision, I am now limited to optics.
    Handgun usage at fairly close range(under 25 yards) is a whole different thing and is the only circumstance where I can make iron sights work.

  17. #177
    Boolit Grand Master
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    FWIW, when I shot smallbore the most precise sight arrangement for me was using an aperture front. I could never get the same scores with a post front. With the deteriorating eyesight I have now, a front post would be even worse.

    Your eye will naturally line up an equal amount of "fuzziness" around a round picture...a post requires sharp definition to get it lined up every time. You will notice front sight insert assortments have more aperture inserts than posts.

    Not sure if this has been discussed but I had shooting glasses made a few years ago that had the focus point for the aiming eye lense at the front sight. That helped me a lot.
    Don Verna


  18. #178
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman...I wish you luck on your search for that perfect combination and envy your ability to use them as well as you do.

    dverna...Your eye will naturally line up an equal amount of "fuzziness" around a round picture...a post requires sharp definition to get it lined up every time. You will notice front sight insert assortments have more aperture inserts than posts.

    One thing I do have, thanks to HARRY TOBIN's generosity with his 3-D printer is a heckuva assortment of globes of every size and shape Harry could imagine (even made some to experiment with the diffraction so we could better understand the dynamics of that).
    What I need to do is go through them and try them all on a series of spots and just see what I can see, see what makes that 'natural alignment' just pop out at me.

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  19. #179
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Back on the 4'th...I think I've settled on this peep Harry Tobin made...when a 3" black spot is centered it pops out to the eye pretty good. Still the groups (so called groups) tend to mosey around the POA and that's got to be fixed. I think that part is all in my cheek weld.



    This morning...it was a bit overcast to foggy, it was blowing in and out but I had ample light. I thought the light level was better than the bright sunlight because there is less glare.



    Overall, I think the groups are starting to meander around the POA a little less. I am concentrating on that cheek weld & getting it the same each time...

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  20. #180
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Working in the setup on a different rifle is always interesting and sometimes challenging. If it was always the same, it would get boring.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check