Vintage 22 Rifles / iron sights / 50 yds / 'Good Groups' ?

[tazman]

I don't have any fresh ideas. I think you have a pretty good idea what you could be capable of. You should have a much better idea than I do.
The only thing I might suggest is to run some Match ammunition through it just to remove the possible incompatible ammo question.
I did that with my old Winchester after I cleaned it and got a major surprise. It turned in the best groups it has fired in the nearly 60 years I have owned it.

[OS OK]

That's a very good idea taz...consider it on the menu before I pull the tuner.

[Ithaca Gunner]

As for ammunition, don't even think of giving up on a certain box after only 10-20 shots. At that number you've just begun to condition the bore to the lube on them. I got this advice from a long time .22 match shooter. If a new rifle that didn't shoot to expectation with his old match ammo, he would buy several box's each of proven quality ammo, shoot a box from a clean bore often at a single target, then shoot for score with the second box like a regulation match and see how it did, choosing the best of what he had to buy cases of. I heard him stress many times the importance of the lube/barrel marriage and he would not clean the bore until the gun was put away after the season was over.

I haven't tried this myself, however have you tried one of Paco Kelly's rimfire tools? It's a die where you drop a .22 cartridge in and use a rod to tap or press against the bullet, expanding it slightly. The theory is, most .22 rifles have sloppy chambers, (purposely done at the factories) to accommodate all brands and types of ammunition and the cure is to ''fit'' the bullet to the chamber.

Here's a link www.gunblast.com/Paco2.htm

[Alferd Packer]

some soot from a burning candle or even a match if you are quick and once you learn how.

[OS OK]

As for ammunition, don't even think of giving up on a certain box after only 10-20 shots. At that number you've just begun to condition the bore to the lube on them. I got this advice from a long time .22 match shooter. If a new rifle that didn't shoot to expectation with his old match ammo, he would buy several box's each of proven quality ammo, shoot a box from a clean bore often at a single target, then shoot for score with the second box like a regulation match and see how it did, choosing the best of what he had to buy cases of. I heard him stress many times the importance of the lube/barrel marriage and he would not clean the bore until the gun was put away after the season was over.

I haven't tried this myself, however have you tried one of Paco Kelly's rimfire tools? It's a die where you drop a .22 cartridge in and use a rod to tap or press against the bullet, expanding it slightly. The theory is, most .22 rifles have sloppy chambers, (purposely done at the factories) to accommodate all brands and types of ammunition and the cure is to ''fit'' the bullet to the chamber.

Here's a link www.gunblast.com/Paco2.htm

I've seen those, am a little afraid to go banging on loaded ammo. Thank you...charlie

[OS OK]

As taz suggested...I changed to the Eley Match for a few cards. I wasn't expecting to see this.
It was overcast and that's my only drawback today...the fliers belong to me, not the Match ammo.
I have a couple more days coming this week where the wind is forecast at '0 & 2 mph'...hopefully I'll get a sunny day too, that light makes so much difference in the peep sight. I think I can do better than this...(FINGERS CROSSED)



When I've shot a couple more of these cards and I have a good agg. average, I'll pull the tuner and try it with the Eley Match...that should say whether the tuner is doing anything or not?

[tazman]

Seriously impressive there OS.
Delete those two fliers and you would have been under 1 inch on all targets. That old girl will shoot!

Am I mistaken or is that substantially better than you have done with the MKII?

[Harry Tobin]

Well dang Charlie, always thought I’d like to go shooting with you. But with stuff like that you’d put me to shame! Now for the people that don’t know this man, I’ve been working on my 357 carbine shooting and was low on components and he sent me 500 new brass and bullets. A true friend for sure, hey nice shooting TEX!!! And thanks again ole buddy!

[OS OK]

Seriously impressive there OS.
Delete those two fliers and you would have been under 1 inch on all targets. That old girl will shoot!

Am I mistaken or is that substantially better than you have done with the MKII?

taz...I think the best the MKII has done with scope and with peep & globe is 3/8" groups with lotz of 1/2" groups and of course with me behind the peep...lotz & lotz larger than that!
I think the trick to trimming those shooter induced fliers is to have a day with some bright light...few to no clouds and I'll gladly take 2 mph or less full value wind...that may show us a 3/8" group or two in the next 2 or 3 cards?
I measured that rear peep the other day and it turned out to be .040", you can see why I'm needing lotz of light!

Harry...Thank You my old little brother, very kind words there & after all you have done for me, what I did was a drop in the bucket in comparison!
You are so welcome & I'm glad I can finally do something for you.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I tend to get lost a bit in these long threads so maybe it's been brought up and I don't remember, have you tried a dab or two of bedding compound to marry the action to the stock?

[OS OK]

I tend to get lost a bit in these long threads so maybe it's been brought up and I don't remember, have you tried a dab or two of bedding compound to marry the action to the stock?

No I haven't...she is bone stock butt to muzzle. One thing though, that action & barrel drop in sung as a bug in a rug. Just sitting there it doesn't have any slack movement fore to aft.

[OS OK]

Alright...I finally got that sunny day...and shot a 3/8"s group...heheee...but I left at least 3 of them on the table!

It's always the goof yankin the trigger that let's us down every time...right? I had plenty light, hardly any wind and the temp was 66ºƒ...couldn't ask for better

I knew it was going to be a good day so I started off dotting 'i's & crossing 't's...I was a man on a mission this morning.



I don't believe it was the ammo that caused these fliers...it was me, no excuses....I added two more sessions to yesterday's card (it's highlighted in yellow), all in all, I'm pleased...I think I'll call it here instead of pushing for another card and trying for multiple 3/8's groups. The rifle is better at it's job than I am at mine.



Since I have a couple more days like today coming tomorrow and the next day...I think I'll pull the tuner in the morning and see what that rifle does without it?
Unless of course, I've overlooked something, in which case I'm open for suggestions...?

[tazman]

I think the groups you fired today show what the rifle is capable of with the "tuner" and good ammo. Very good shooting, by the way. I know I am not capable of that without an optic.
I will be interested to see what it does without the tuner.

[OS OK]

Here's the first test of the Rem 33-P without the home-spun tuner attached...using the Eley Match...



Pretty tight groups. Here's a comparison to the last tuner test, looking close at the individual groups I think today's test looks a little more spread out even though they are small groups. They agg'd at .741" so I can't say they aren't tight, just loose looking if that make sense?



I may have been spending all this time for nothing other than entertainment?

[tazman]

Somebody who posted in one of your threads before was able to do an aggregate of all the groups shot by doing an overlay so all the groups became one large group. They were able to measure the standard deviation of each bullet from the center. That would be the best way to do the comparison between these two cards. With the overlay, you could at least get a better idea of what you have even without the standard deviation.
I do not have the capability or the software to do that.

I have to agree that the last card shown seems to have tighter clusters even though the outside measurements are very close. Is it really the setup or were you just having a more consistent day?

I am not certain you have enough cards to do a good comparison. The groups are so similar.

[dverna]

Tazman is correct. When performance is close, it takes a lot of groups to determine if there is a statistical difference. But the reality is if it is that close....does it matter?

I have been going through this with the work I am going with pellets. I have shot over 250 groups. In the end, I found pellets that shot better than but they cost three times as much. In my case, for hunting and plinking, a difference of 1/4” at 50 yards was not significant enough. I wound up getting 14k cheap pellets for a cost was $175. I saved $350. If I was competing, it would matter and I would use the more accurate pellets for matches. But my needs are sub 1” at 50 yards and cheap trigger time.

In your case, will a 1/8” or 1/4” difference matter? Good enough may be good enough.

To be frank, I will shoot up some premium pellets to post some bragging groups but it is more for ego. I just hope I do not find something that averages .4” and costs $20/500. Then I may regret having thousands of cheap pellets...LOL.

[OS OK]

Another pretty exceptional day for shooting...so I ran another card without the tuner.



I still see them as loose groups.
It's not so much about finding something that is good enough but rather, what does the tuner do or not do. I am experimenting.
I'm pretty much convinced that the tuner is doing it's job and tightening these loose groups.

It could be adjusted perhaps 1/4" out from the muzzle but it isn't really a tunable tuner like the CZ has. It was just a guess of sorts...trying to see if I could fool the barrel into reacting as if it were actually longer than it is and having that first node in the barrel shift towards the muzzle.

I think I'll call this a done deal experiment. I have some other ideas for making a 'pencil barrel' tuner that is actually 'tuneable'. Harry Tobin is going to help me with this.
Currently I'm trying to locate a Lyman 55W peep sight for my Winchester 67A, if I score on the peep, I'll build that tuner and test it on the W67A.

[444ttd]

i do that with a 3x9x swift in a ruger 10/22!!!!!! i have a marlin m25 youth in 22lr with a 4x bushnell(i think). it was given to me by my dad as a christmas present(new m25) in 1984. i can't remember how many squirrels, groundhogs, foxes, racoons and all the other small game animals and targets(plastic army guys, cans....) i shot. back in the day, i shot everything i could get my hands on(22lr), remmies, feds, winnies to name few. i could do 1/2 - 3/4" group(7 shots/bench) at 50 yards with cci mini mags with 36gr hp. it was expensive for a 13yo, $3-5 for 100 rounds, so i regulated them to squirrels and other small game.

i've been trying to a c&r 22 rifle for about a year now, but they are expensive. i got my eye on a j stevens favorite in 22lr and a marlin no 20 at a auction.

[Winger Ed.]

If the barrel isn't trashed out, and you do your part, expectations of 1" groups at 50 yards is quite realistic
unless you are using ammo that is just junk.

[dverna]

I have posted this comment before but it bears repeating....

OS OK does what almost no one else has ever done or will do. He shows ALL his groups. Not just the good ones. He has discipline and honesty.

I have had a pet peeve about accuracy claims for decades. OS OK is the real deal...and I respect him for how he tests. I decided to do the same when I started wringing our my new air guns. Every group gets recorded.

I have 3 sub .25" groups at 50 yards with an air gun....but that is not reality.
I have 35 sub .50" groups at 50 yards with an air gun...but that is not reality.
I also have 18 groups that went over 1.0"
Reality for that rifle is .76" for 213 groups. (all are 5 shot groups)

I hope folks making accuracy claims inject a small amount of reality. Say, 5 consecutive 5 shot groups without any "called fliers"...every shot counts for record. But that will never happen...egos are too sensitive. And it is so expensive to shoot 25 rounds...LOL. And so boring to shoot paper...LOL.

444ttd, you may be able to do what OS OK can do with your scoped 10/22. I have two stock 10/22's and mine are not capable of 3/4" inch groups at 50 yards. Maybe you got a good one!