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Thread: Vintage 22 Rifles / iron sights / 50 yds / 'Good Groups' ?

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Part of my answer to the OP's question and aging eyeballs was to buy a CZ 452 Ultra Lux - - the current equivalent being the 457 Jaguar. While it isn't technically old, it IS old-school. The open sights are big, square, black, highly adjustable, and the front one is at the end of 28.5" inches of barrel where it should at least somewhat be getting into the field of your distance-corrected vision. While I have short and long barrel .22's that use the classic U-notch / bead sight combo, and I will continue to shoot them, it's that CZ that lets me largely forget the physical limitations and pretend I'm 10 with my (open) iron sights again.

    If your gun is tapped for a receiver peep, that, plus the addition of a Lyman 17A front (hooded ring) and a Merit iris-adjustable aperture in the rear can make a WORLD of difference. I did this to my Winchester 69A, choosing a post insert for the front sight (instead of a bullseye-appropriate ring) for better field shooting. That gives you the same extremely intuitive "align-two-rings/bullet-hits-the-post" sight picture as the HK combat rifles combined with the long sight radius provided by the 25" barrel that seemed to be the common thing in the industry back then.

    Shooting the old OEM sights for group in crappy light is usually a loosing proposition, so choosing your day helps. Smoking your front sight may also be a useful endeavor, since for a lot of us it's blurry and gold or silver beads only add to the halo and take away our contrast.
    Excellent posting, thanks for all the information here.
    Tuesday I'll know for sure...but I have a line on a 67A that has the factory installed peep on it. Going to take the bore scope & go visit my favorite GunSmith (fingers crossed!)
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  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Here's a little video I thought you fellas might enjoy...Meet the Montana Craftsmen Who Made the Quigley Rifle
    It shares one thing we all have in common in this thread...the love for the iron sight & striving to master it...

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  3. #23
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    I think your bore scope - while handy - may tend to place your thinking on pathways that may not be productive to follow.

    A boogered-up crown is a problem, as is a true rusted sewer pipe, as is a ringed/bulged bore caused by a squib - all of which will be visible without a magic camera.

    Beyond all that though, accuracy is about CONSISTENT actions happening inside the bore. Small pits, frosting, throat wear, etc... will be there on the first shot or the 5,000th, so they are probably not worth rejecting a rifle out of hand over, and certainly not worth sleeving such a rifle over without considering how it shoots left as is.

    In my armory tool kit at work, I have both a 5.56 commercial throat erosion gauge, and the military equivalent. The commercial gauge has a series of hash marks about 1/10" of an inch apart for maybe 2 to 2.5 inches. The first of those hash marks is your "zero" line and the second is your "one". You use the front of your AR-15's ejection port as a reference mark - a brand new barrel will usually stop the gauge at about 1 or 1.5. Our full auto guns in SWAT service for a decade will eat that gauge all the way down to 6 or 7.

    You might be concerned by that until you see the military gauge. It uses a different reference point, but the principle is the same. It has a marking which says something like "reject for overseas deployment" that signifies literally INCHES of wear past the point that the erosion marks quit on the commercial gauge. In short, Uncle Sam regards an M16 with 4-6" of flamed-out throat as still being capable of taking an enemy off the field at several hundred meters, barring any other problems with the barrel, and you don't have any real indicator of how a pretty or ugly bore will shoot until you shoot it. As long as whatever passes for a throat funnels the bullet and the rest of the bore spins it consistently, it stands a chance of delivering the goods.
    Last edited by Bigslug; 09-13-2021 at 08:48 AM.
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  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    You asked about group sizes. Here is my take on that just for myself.
    Iron sights, for me, are hunting grade equipment, not target level. Particularly with the open sights that came on the vast majority of older rifles that were not match grade.
    That said, I would consider groups about the size of a squirrels head to be good groups. If you could consistently take a squirrel with a head shot at 50 yards, no matter how you were holding/resting the rifle, that is good shooting.
    Basically, anything under 2 inch groups at 50 yards with iron sights is good shooting.
    I have proven that many of my old 22LR rifles are capable of much better than that with standard hunting ammo. I need to find out if I am capable of that with iron sights.
    I may be in for some disappointment.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    You asked about group sizes. Here is my take on that just for myself.
    Iron sights, for me, are hunting grade equipment, not target level. Particularly with the open sights that came on the vast majority of older rifles that were not match grade.
    That said, I would consider groups about the size of a squirrels head to be good groups. If you could consistently take a squirrel with a head shot at 50 yards, no matter how you were holding/resting the rifle, that is good shooting.
    Basically, anything under 2 inch groups at 50 yards with iron sights is good shooting.
    I have proven that many of my old 22LR rifles are capable of much better than that with standard hunting ammo. I need to find out if I am capable of that with iron sights.
    I may be in for some disappointment.
    The key is to not retreat back to the sandbags and keeping yourself in the standing position, while holding yourself to those same standards . . .even after you realize that you suck at it. It's the only way to get better.

    This is the real beauty of the .22 - it lets you affordably work your way through these problems. Like I said earlier, proving what the RIFLE is capable of is not the entire story.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I wasn't taking the bore-scope in consideration of having it sleeved or re-worked in any way. Only thing I have for a gauge is to compare it to the barrel I have now. I see already what my 'sewer pipe' can do even hindered by my poor sight alignment and such with the iron sights.
    That's pretty much the only consideration of looking that rifle over, well...that and the bolt. The stock may need re-sanding to re-float the barrel due to old age and stock warp but I consider that just part of a tune up before shooting to see how well it will do.
    I've pretty much decided to buy it anyway...I've already handled it and looked the stock over and all looks pretty well considering the age. They have it locked on a cable so I wasn't able to feel what the trigger feels like or see/listen to how well it strikes an empty case.
    I'll find out Tuesday whether it's still chained up in the corner with all the other unwanted old relics.

    As far as your being against the sand bags or rest and insisting on standing freehand and shooting exclusively in that style, consider that some of us old'Dawgs have been ridden hard and put up wet too many times. Been too wild and crazy all of our lives with various sports or rodeo or have work related injuries and we now have some real handicaps to overcome. Standing for me is out because of a back fusion on 3 levels, if I stand too long or suddenly give a left twist to look back at something, I'll impinge & inflame my sciatic nerve in about 2 shakes and then I'm done for the day.

    Considerations like these are just as important as having good eyes and us old'Farts just manage a little differently. But...we are still shooting and handloading/casting and enjoying ourselves.
    This is where you more agile folks can add to the thread, do your shooting by whatever standards you want to apply, then take some pictures to give us all a measure of your success at it.
    This doesn't have to be, nor do I want it to be all one flavor of style...the only thing I do want to remain consistent is the fact that we are all shooting iron sights. Pick the yardage you can see at well and have at it.
    Get those old .22's out and enjoy them...show us what you got & what you do with it?
    Set the bar should another fella want to try your particular gig? Give them some 'hints-n-tricks' for success?

    I thought I covered this in the opening thread but I may have not? Threads morph as they go longer and longer...no telling what we may be discussing next week?

    I did both of these threads;
    New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...BR-at-50-yards
    New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...BE-at-50-yards

    You would not believe all the various subjects that came up, all the hints-n-tips and general information in those subjects. I would like this thread to be as successful as those but in the vintage rifle and shooting better and most important...having fun with it.
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    Winchester M-69A target. It just plain works.

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  8. #28
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    If not standing, it's worth playing with sitting while bracing your upper arms against your torso - stuff like that. It actually manages to be pretty good low impact exercise, just manipulating a light to medium weight rifle around in and out of position repeatedly. It won't get you anywhere in the Olympic Free Weights competition, but putting a hundred .22's through a Winchester 67's cycle of operations without putting it down, while turning right or left to splat various bits of junk amounts to a fair workout that's pretty easily contained to whatever your limits are.

    Ask me how I know this

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    WWJMBD?

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  9. #29
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    The last time I ran a borescope down anything was sometime in the late 1980's when SIMA came aboard to look at our 5"/54's. As long as the crown on a rifle looks good, maybe with magnification, I'm okay with it.

    Sometimes I think we shooters have been cross-contaminated with fisherman's disease, only instead of more lures in the tackle box, we think we need more expensive and specific tools.

    Well, that and I'm cheap and don't want to pay for a bore scope.

    Robert

  10. #30
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    Borescopes are useful and can locate some serious issues not seen by looking through the bore.

    Case 1: I have a Stevens Visible Loader that I brought home 3 weeks ago with a good crown and a clean, shiny bore. But the 6 inches in front of the chamber is leaded so badly there is no rifling. I have to clean it before I even think of shooting it.

    Case 2: I have a vintage gunsmith built BR-50 rifle that won't group. The bore inspection shows a badly pitted barrel from the muzzle back to a few inches in front of the chamber. This is a new barrel and was bad when used for this build. It will have to be barreled.

    Without a borescope I would have been seriously handicapped sorting out the accuracy issues caused by a bad bore. It is a worthwhile tool to have if tinkering with vintage 22's.

    Ken

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pressman View Post
    Borescopes are useful and can locate some serious issues not seen by looking through the bore.

    Case 1: I have a Stevens Visible Loader that I brought home 3 weeks ago with a good crown and a clean, shiny bore. But the 6 inches in front of the chamber is leaded so badly there is no rifling. I have to clean it before I even think of shooting it.

    Case 2: I have a vintage gunsmith built BR-50 rifle that won't group. The bore inspection shows a badly pitted barrel from the muzzle back to a few inches in front of the chamber. This is a new barrel and was bad when used for this build. It will have to be barreled.

    Without a borescope I would have been seriously handicapped sorting out the accuracy issues caused by a bad bore. It is a worthwhile tool to have if tinkering with vintage 22's.

    Ken
    I've often wondered what a pitted & fouled up black powder bore would look like. These 67's were made from 1940 ~ 1963 so I doubt it ever saw a diet of any black powder rounds? Evidently a lot of changes and innovations happened from 1900 to as late as 1940 concerning the various sizes of .22 ammo but I couldn't find where they changed the powder to smokeless. It could be this bore saw some black powder .22 ammo since it's chambered for shorts, longs and long rifle. It'd only take a few negligent cleanings and the deed would have been done I expect?

    The pitting in this barrel looks like it could have been a poor batch of steel and segments just eroded away that weren't smelted well into the mixture (I don't know spit about making steel, I'm spitwadding here)

    But I am glad to have the bore-scope, it was cheap, works well and satisfies my curiosity of such things. Well worth the purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    If not standing, it's worth playing with sitting while bracing your upper arms against your torso - stuff like that. It actually manages to be pretty good low impact exercise, just manipulating a light to medium weight rifle around in and out of position repeatedly. It won't get you anywhere in the Olympic Free Weights competition, but putting a hundred .22's through a Winchester 67's cycle of operations without putting it down, while turning right or left to splat various bits of junk amounts to a fair workout that's pretty easily contained to whatever your limits are.

    Ask me how I know this

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    Believe me I know the positions well...I was a JarHead back in 71
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  12. #32
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    An interesting thread I will be following.

    My oldest .22 is the one my dad gave me over 55 years ago. When I had enough money from working at the grocery store I bought a V22 scope for it and removed the iron sights...which I likely kept but cannot find and will never put back on. Turned 71 yesterday, so these old eyes can only shoot peeps and scopes.

    And that old girl needs a bit of work as she has a weak firing spring and gets about 20% FTF's. Just been too lazy to get her fixed and parts are not easy to find. She will do about 1.5" at 50 yards with bulk ammunition.

    I am currently having fun shooting PCP's so I will remain an interested by-stander. Plus I am cheap...too cheap to burn up "junk" .22's that are selling for over $50/brick to get 1.5" groups at 50 yards when the air gun is averaging less than 3/4" with "premium" pellets ($18/500) and an inch with $12 Crosman's.
    Don Verna


  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    In trying to find information on when they changed from black ffff powder to smokeless I found this interesting article.

    A Brief History of .22 Rimfire Ammunition
    By Chuck Hawks

    https://www.chuckhawks.com/history_rimfire_ammo.htm
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  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Interesting thread topic!

    Well, I might just have one or two old rifles lying around. Three Toz 17's, four Slazenger single shots, a Voere, 1930's Mauser and so on.

    To see what one Slazenger can do, I epoxied a scope rail on.


    It actually shot quite well. I did that so as to know what the rifle can do before beating myself up over lousy groups with open sights. Having played around with open sights a bit, I have come to realize that the shape, size and position of the rear sight is all important to my eyes. If I get the rear sight right, the front blade comes into perfect focus while looking at the target. Lighting is important. I plan on fitting a shield over the rear sights when I get to it.

    And this is what my little Slazenger can do with a scope. This is the bench mark.


    This is the first one that I got to actually fire every shot. Weak firing pin spring. I'll be ordering more for the others sometime soon.

    Next trick is to see what my eyes can do with it. I know I can't see the sights all that well so I'll be working on those but still, the idea is to see just what I can do with it as it is.

    So the thing with these Slazengers is that they are small and light and just feel nice to shoot with.

    My one Toz 17 has produced some nice groups with a scope. I've taken the scope off now for open sight shooting. I know how it shoots (very well) and it has almose ideal sights for my eyes. My second Toz 17 has what looks like a mint bore. I pulled it out of hiding two or three days ago. I'll be putting it back together and it will share a bolt with the other Toz (yeah, I got given it sans a bolt). My Toz 17-1 has a dodgy trigger so I haven't been able to assess its accuracy. I'll get to that one sometime. It's a scope only rifle because the rear sight is missing although I'm sure I can make some to suite my eyes sometime.

    My Remington 512 is a scope only rifle and my 510 and 511 are still being accurized using a scope but they will probably become a target sight rifle and an open sight rifle just for target shooting. They have both produced quite nice groups but also some not so good so there is something going on that needs working on.

    All in all, these old 22's a great fun!
    Last edited by 303Guy; 09-13-2021 at 04:50 PM.
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  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    303Guy.... "Where the heck have you been?"
    Glad to see'Ya posting again. Say...that group is dang nice, looks like several more than 5 in there? Is that 25 or 50 yards? More???
    Can you post a good picture of that Slazenger ? I never saw one...heck, never even heard of one.
    Looks like we'll have some interesting old vintage rifles showing up in here.

    Welcome back...charlie
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  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I pulled another Vintage rifle from the safe today... It's a 'Wards Western Field 46D' - .22 short-long-long rifle. Actually, it's a Mossberg 42C made from 1938 ~ 1941 (I would imagine WWII put an end to it's manufacture as Mossberg probabally had to use all their manufacturing abilities for the war effort? Not sure about that, just spitwadding.)

    80 years old at a minimum, it's pretty crusty...was crusty back in 62 when Dad brought it home for me, don't know where he got it?



    It is still sweet to shoot, much heavier and feels more like a CF rifle than the Win67D. It has a 24" barrel and a 1lb. 2oz. trigger that is crisp with no slack.



    The rear sight is a square notch with windage & elevation controls on the sight...



    The front sight used to be some kind of bead but the bead is long gone & now it's a square top post...actually it's a good match for the rear, pretty easy to align and set that spot on top.



    I got the candle out and gave them a proper 'smoke job' for today's shooting...

    I started with the same type targets from yesterday, not knowing exactly where it would hit, I started out with the warmer spot on the bottom center (just in case). It was pretty close.



    These spots seemed too buisy for this sight combination. I remembered a quote from a movie, I think...'The Patriot' where he sets up an ambush and tells his sons..."Aim small, miss small." err, somthing like that. So...I set up a different card for the second go-round today with that quote in mind...



    These are 2" & 3" 'shoot-n-see' stick-on targets. I like the size but don't like the blow-out of the impact, makes them hard to measure. I'm looking for some 3" black round stickers like the 2" ones I have.
    I think I'll be spending some time cleaning this old rifle up. The stock needs sanding in the barrel channel, it'll barely pass a piece of paper from the front of the forearm to the front of the action.
    QUESTION: - Does anyone have a recipe for removing rust without removing what little blueing that's there? I'd like to restore the steel as best as I can.

    thanks ... charlie
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  17. #37
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I pulled another Vintage rifle from the safe today... It's a 'Wards Western Field 46D' - .22 short-long-long rifle. Actually, it's a Mossberg 42C made from 1938 ~ 1941 (I would imagine WWII put an end to it's manufacture as Mossberg probabally had to use all their manufacturing abilities for the war effort? Not sure about that, just spitwadding.)

    80 years old at a minimum, it's pretty crusty...was crusty back in 62 when Dad brought it home for me, don't know where he got it?



    It is still sweet to shoot, much heavier and feels more like a CF rifle than the Win67D. It has a 24" barrel and a 1lb. 2oz. trigger that is crisp with no slack.



    The rear sight is a square notch with windage & elevation controls on the sight...



    The front sight used to be some kind of bead but the bead is long gone & now it's a square top post...actually it's a good match for the rear, pretty easy to align and set that spot on top.



    I got the candle out and gave them a proper 'smoke job' for today's shooting...

    I started with the same type targets from yesterday, not knowing exactly where it would hit, I started out with the warmer spot on the bottom center (just in case). It was pretty close.



    These spots seemed too buisy for this sight combination. I remembered a quote from a movie, I think...'The Patriot' where he sets up an ambush and tells his sons..."Aim small, miss small." err, somthing like that. So...I set up a different card for the second go-round today with that quote in mind...



    These are 2" & 3" 'shoot-n-see' stick-on targets. I like the size but don't like the blow-out of the impact, makes them hard to measure. I'm looking for some 3" black round stickers like the 2" ones I have.
    I think I'll be spending some time cleaning this old rifle up. The stock needs sanding in the barrel channel, it'll barely pass a piece of paper from the front of the forearm to the front of the action.
    QUESTION: - Does anyone have a recipe for removing rust without removing what little blueing that's there? I'd like to restore the steel as best as I can.

    thanks ... charlie
    I got a Mossberg 42B around here someplace, shoots very well, as good as it did when we were kids with good eyes!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    [B]...QUESTION: - Does anyone have a recipe for removing rust without removing what little blueing that's there? I'd like to restore the steel as best as I can.

    thanks ... charlie
    I haven't done it yet, so proceed at your own risk.

    According to Mark Novak on youtube; you need to boil it for 20-30 minutes, then card it with a fine wire wheel. The red rust converts to black oxide (bluing) by boiling.

    Let us know if you try it.

    Unfortunately my range day tomorrow got cancelled, for couple of reasons: 1. My cousin called and needs help moving a Shopsmith she bought, and offere a free (yeah right) birthday dinner. Okay.

    And 2. As I was going to the store to get dog food this evening, I had my rear driveshaft fall out of the pickup. Luckily it was the rear U-joint that broke, so no pogo sticking, and I was in front of a parts store. better yet, its a four wheel drive so I wasn't stuck working on it on the side of the road.

    Robert

  19. #39
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    I just found this thread. My Only "vintage" 22 rifle is a Winchester model 62. Serial number says it was made in 1937. I traded into it about 50 years ago and it has always been a fine plinking rifle. It came with a old Lyman tang sight and I put a Lyman 17-A on the front.

    I took it out today to see how it would group at 50 yards with 10 shot groups. The ammo I used was my last box of Wal-Mart Federal 550 bulk pack.I don't see iron sights all that well anymore so that is my excuse for the targets in the photos.




  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    In trying to find information on when they changed from black ffff powder to smokeless . . .
    Gave that a quick skim - didn't see the answer to another relevant question: What were the various priming compounds used and when did they quit being corrosive?
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check