Vintage 22 Rifles / iron sights / 50 yds / 'Good Groups' ?

[tazman]

The pictures I posted in the other thread about the MTR and the carbon ring show how short the lead is on that rifle. The ammunition is engraved by the rifling in that barrel.
The older rifles appears to be simply freebored for a little ways before the rifling starts. The reason I say this is there is a short distance between where the carbon ring ends and the rifling begins. It gives the appearance of a smooth metal tube right there.
The freebored section also appears to be the same diameter as the groove diameter of the rest of the barrel. If it is, alignment should not be an issue.
Unfortunately, I have no way to measure all this.
All I can do is check the accuracy the next trip to the range.

[OS OK]

The pictures I posted in the other thread about the MTR and the carbon ring show how short the lead is on that rifle. The ammunition is engraved by the rifling in that barrel.
The older rifles appears to be simply freebored for a little ways before the rifling starts. The reason I say this is there is a short distance between where the carbon ring ends and the rifling begins. It gives the appearance of a smooth metal tube right there.
The freebored section also appears to be the same diameter as the groove diameter of the rest of the barrel. If it is, alignment should not be an issue.
Unfortunately, I have no way to measure all this.
All I can do is check the accuracy the next trip to the range.

From this link... https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...2018-06-13.pdf
SAAMI Z299.1 – 2015 (R2018)Voluntary Industry Performance Standards forPressure and Velocity of Rimfire Sporting Ammunitionfor the Use of Commercial Manufacturers

I get the following drawings, there's quite a difference in a match and sporting chamber. Think of all the differences we would see between all the manufacturers and them taking advantage of the tolerances in the drawings.
It should give you an idea about that 'leade area' and length of chamber...

[tazman]

Interesting.
I also note that these standards appear to be voluntary. I also doubt they were in effect back when my old rifles were built either.
Someone posted a list of chamber dimensions for different manufacturers who had either named their chamber style or were just using what they thought worked better. IIRC those dimensions varied substantially also.
That freebore area I noticed could easily be made to fit inside some of these dimensions.

[OS OK]

Interesting.
I also note that these standards appear to be voluntary. I also doubt they were in effect back when my old rifles were built either.
Someone posted a list of chamber dimensions for different manufacturers who had either named their chamber style or were just using what they thought worked better. IIRC those dimensions varied substantially also.
That freebore area I noticed could easily be made to fit inside some of these dimensions.

I remember us talking about this some time back in one of the other threads I've posted but couldn't remember which. I thought that this publication here might be the minimum & maximum numbers and then they (the manufacturers) would choose between them what exactly they want to cut in their rifles.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was an easy way to have our vintage rifle chambers shortened up so the rounds would engrave in the lands! If that were possible I recon it'd cost more than the old'Girls are worth?

[tazman]

You would be talking setting back and rechambering the barrel at which point it is no longer a "vintage" rifle. Might as well buy a new CZ or Tikka and shoot that. It gets away from our entire "shoot it as it was back in the day" approach.

I found the post about the different chamber dimensions. Post number 23 on the page in this link
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...50-yards/page2

[OS OK]

You would be talking setting back and rechambering the barrel at which point it is no longer a "vintage" rifle. Might as well buy a new CZ or Tikka and shoot that. It gets away from our entire "shoot it as it was back in the day" approach.

I found the post about the different chamber dimensions. Post number 23 on the page in this link
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...50-yards/page2

I suppose your right taz, it would no longer be like 'back in the day'. But...since I don't have rules to follow or consider, I just thought having an 80 year old rifle that could compete with the modern rifles of today would be neet. Kinda like having a 'sleeper hot rod car'.

Good find on that chart...those dimensions really split hairs, such subtle differences.

[dverna]

I suppose your right taz, it would no longer be like 'back in the day'. But...since I don't have rules to follow or consider, I just thought having an 80 year old rifle that could compete with the modern rifles of today would be neet. Kinda like having a 'sleeper hot rod car'.

Good find on that chart...those dimensions really split hairs, such subtle differences.

I am with you on this one. I have a .22 "econo" Anschutz my dad gave me over 55 years ago. One of those guns that a guy never sells. It is beat up and looks like hell. It would be neat to get it to shoot 3/4" groups at 50 yards. Really silly to take a rifle that is worth at the most $100 and put over $200 into it...but I might do it. I have been searching for a decent trigger to replace the one that is on it. I am going to give it a good cleaning after reading the stuff Tazman posted to see it it shoots better. But if I had to have a gunsmith set the barrel back and rechamber it I would probably do it. Sometimes it is not about the money.

I don't go to public ranges anymore. But when my buddies come over it would be a hoot to kick their butts with the old girl. I have had her for 59 years.

[tazman]

I suppose your right taz, it would no longer be like 'back in the day'. But...since I don't have rules to follow or consider, I just thought having an 80 year old rifle that could compete with the modern rifles of today would be neet. Kinda like having a 'sleeper hot rod car'.

Good find on that chart...those dimensions really split hairs, such subtle differences.

Subtle changes can make all the difference in how these rifles perform. Think about how much difference there can be between different lots of the same ammunition or the differences action screw torque can make. Or even the different settings on the tuner you use on your CZ.
When it comes to chamber dimensions, you have to live with what is there in these older rifles.
In custom rifles you can make those subtle changes in chamber dimensions and see if they improve things. Some of those chambers were cut for specific brands of ammunition.
I suspect we might find certain brands of ammunition that shoot incredibly well in some of these older rifles. Great strides have been made over the years in ammunition accuracy and consistency. Some of these rifles are 70+ years old. Some of them started life firing corrosive ammunition.

I think I will try some of my match ammunition in a couple of these old girls and see what happens.

[OS OK]

I am with you on this one. I have a .22 "econo" Anschutz my dad gave me over 55 years ago. One of those guns that a guy never sells. It is beat up and looks like hell. It would be neat to get it to shoot 3/4" groups at 50 yards. Really silly to take a rifle that is worth at the most $100 and put over $200 into it...but I might do it. I have been searching for a decent trigger to replace the one that is on it. I am going to give it a good cleaning after reading the stuff Tazman posted to see it it shoots better. But if I had to have a gunsmith set the barrel back and rechamber it I would probably do it. Sometimes it is not about the money.

I don't go to public ranges anymore. But when my buddies come over it would be a hoot to kick their butts with the old girl. I have had her for 59 years.

Exactly my sentiments Don....the Boys I shoot with are Gamesters to the maximum! We always have a friendly competition but when the chips are on the line, you can expect one of them to make a sound or say something just to put a little distraction out there or make you question the shot...'full blown gamesmanship', you not only have to out-shoot your friends but survive their antics too. Great fun.
One of them brings a new 'shooter' over and you break out an old'Girl and shoot better, it's kills them! Of course they can do the same to you too.

Half the fun of shooting a private range is enjoying your friends.

[OS OK]

Subtle changes can make all the difference in how these rifles perform. Think about how much difference there can be between different lots of the same ammunition or the differences action screw torque can make. Or even the different settings on the tuner you use on your CZ.
When it comes to chamber dimensions, you have to live with what is there in these older rifles.
In custom rifles you can make those subtle changes in chamber dimensions and see if they improve things. Some of those chambers were cut for specific brands of ammunition.
I suspect we might find certain brands of ammunition that shoot incredibly well in some of these older rifles. Great strides have been made over the years in ammunition accuracy and consistency. Some of these rifles are 70+ years old. Some of them started life firing corrosive ammunition.

I think I will try some of my match ammunition in a couple of these old girls and see what happens.

I'll have a new little project soon...an experiment with pencil barrel vintage rifles.

I have an old flash suppressor from an m16 that conditor22 just turned on his lathe. The idea is to have it slip fit over the pencil barrel rifles, have it snug up to the barrel with 3 set-screws for adjustment. (set-screws with a #12 lead shot under them so they won't marr the barrel)
It's not a heavy weight tuner but I'm thinking it won't take much weight to change the node on a pencil barrel...we'll see soon?

[tazman]

Your new project sounds interesting. I will be looking for a report.

I made it to the range today with the cleaned old rifles. Boy did it make a difference.
I only had a scope on one rifle, a Winchester 72a which was my very first ever rifle. Here is a picture of the group shot at 25 yards.


The rifle wears an old Weaver 4X scope that hasn't been adjusted in over 40 years. Basically, I put it on the rifle and never needed to adjust it to hit squirrels. I still didn't adjust it. The glass is beginning to get a little unclear after all these years but is still usable, mostly.
The bullet out of the group on the left target was the very first cold, dry bore shot. The rest all went into basically the same group.
Discounting the cold bore shot, the groups measured 1/4 inch center to center. This old rifle has never shot this well since I have owned it. It has also never been this clean since I have owned it.
I fired a five shot group at 50 yards just to see what happened. I couldn't aim well due to the scope being so old. Still shot a 1 inch group. I wonder what this rifle could do with new glass on it.

I also had my Remington 512 along and fired it at 25 yards. No scope. With my old eyes, I shot a 1 inch five shot group. Makes me wonder what it would do with a scope mounted.

[OS OK]

That's really good news.

I'd be looking for an affordable scope(s) now. I imagine that the lower $ scopes might fit the bill since there's hardly any physical shock to affect their internals.
The one guy I know of who is knowledgeable is this guy, I think he has made about a thousand million scope reviews on the Y_Tube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6_OVPEfXQ

I don't envy you having to shop for a scope, generally when we say affordable we are really meaning cheap & cheap just never fit's the bill for a discerning eye.
I guess you have to make up your mind up whether this scope is primarily for getting critters or getting tight groups on paper.
That'd be an easy choice for me since I don't hunt any more.

[OS OK]

I have progressed a little farther with the pencil barrel tuner...I am starting it out on the Rem 33 NRA.



This is how it'll look...I hope there's just enough mass in weight to fool the barrel into reacting like it's 1.5" longer and moving that last node in the barrel up to the muzzle or at least much closer?



I thought I had 6-32 - 1/8" set screws in my stock but didn't so I'm waiting for those to come in the mail. I went ahead and put the taps in and used these goofy screws to hold it in place.



It slips over the barrel 3/4" so I figure I have about 1/4" of adjustment in it before it compromises itself to stay in place & snug. I'm hoping if it needs a little weight that I might accomplish that in another way other than moving it forward?

I rushed out to try it against my better judgement...I decided I needed a 1-2 mph day to tell if it's working but I shot anyway and didn't learn anything.



I wasn't trying to compensate for the wind, just shoot in the same wind direction and velocity (I can't do that very well, I'm not patient to sit there with my eye on that wind arrow and wait to send one.)
It looks a lot like the last time I had it out.
I know it has to be shooting different with the tuner on the end...Tomorrow, Friday & Saturday looks like favorable wind days so perhaps I can get some data then?



If I average the test target against the average of the last target I posted I get...
1 11/32's vs 1 9/32's (I think they call that an aggregate of the card?)
Pretty much the same and yet not the same considering the conditions, overcast light sun vs clear sky bright sun...heck I could make excuses till the cows come in but it won't proove anything so I wait! Again!
I'm so bad!

[OS OK]

Gave it another go this morning... Wind was steady in one direction and low but it was overcast and low light in a peep sight get's tough.



I set her up on the good bag and front rest...yes, still have those goofy long screws in the tuner but the right ones are due in the mail tomorrow (fingers crossed).



And came out a lil'bit better today, the agg was 1/8" smaller. This is the test #1 target patched up and run for the 2'nd time...



When I get a sunny morning and I can see the definition of the white bull better I need to adjust the sights up and right a lil'bit. After that I think I just might be able to keep them all in the white 1" spot. That would be terrific & I'd be real happy with that.

[OS OK]

Test #3 with the tuner... A fine morning for shooting, wind's about the same as before but today I have clear skies, no excuses for not seeing those white spots.
Shooting straight at the white bull, not trying to compensate for the wind.



The agg for the 8 targets is 1 1/16", that's only an improvement over test 2 by 1/16" but it's better none the less. Unless I can get the agg at an 1" or less I feel this experimental tuner is a fail.

[OS OK]

"IT TWAS A GREAT DAY IN THE MORNING!"... Had another favorable day to shoot, wind was low, light was better & I didn't goof anything up...well, I almost didn't!

Started out with a couple of 'test targets' for visibility from the 50 bench. Actually 4 test targets but only 2 different than I've been using. Lately I have been having trouble seeing the white & black contrast. By the time I got to the 3'rd target this morning I realized that I was wearing my sun glasses and not my prescription lenses for distance.
Whatta goof... I had to laugh at myself, I'm getting old, that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!

I wanted to see if some kind of different contrasting between the white and black might make a big difference. I zoomed the camera a little to try to show you what I'm seeing and this is a pretty good picture...this was pretty much what I was seeing without my prescription glasses. (I only wear them to drive so they stay in my truck console and I forget I even have the dang things)



This is the first card...(on this one I'm only taking the agg. for the bottom 4)



That was encouraging so I patched it up and shot another 8 for agg. sizing...(kept my glasses on too )



This turned out better than I expected...now I'm showing progress in the last 5 test cards...



If I can maintain this 'under an 1"' for a few more cards, then I'll remove the tuner and see what I can do without it...that will be the bottom line.

The correct set screws came in Wednesdays mail, I keep an Allen wrench at the bench to check tightness. I put a #9 lead shot in each hole under the setscrews and they are not loosening up.

[tazman]

You seem to be shooting this rifle pretty much the same group size as your MKII.

[OS OK]

That ain't saying much for that MKII is it?

This could be that me as a shooter just can't do any better, that I'm peeked out with this peep and globe or post sight system?

[tazman]

That ain't saying much for that MKII is it?

This could be that me as a shooter just can't do any better, that I'm peeked out with this peep and globe or post sight system?

I know for a fact that my eyes will not allow me to shoot groups at 50 yards that you do. I get groups slightly larger than yours at 25 yards with open sights. I am not qualified to say if you have reached your limits.
Just because I can't do it, does not mean someone else can't either. I have had my nose rubbed in that reality too many times over the years to be that stupid.

[OS OK]

I can't say the Eley Contact is doing the best it can & that this is a limitation because I've found 2 x 3/8"s groups with the MKII using peep & post just recently and several 1/2" also.
Looking back when the MKII was sporting the 6x24 scope I found 2 x 3/8"s groups on one card & several 1/2" also...many in the 5/8" size give or take a 1/16".
So I think the Contact can do better.
What I need is a low wind day again and no clouds so I have the most amount of light to work with. This Sunday may be that day, keeping my fingers crossed.

I don't want to start adding weight or changing where I have the tuner fastened on the barrel because that could take a dozen cards to resolve with only an 1/8" decrease overall.
Just one more morning with no clouds and then I think I will pull the home made tuner and see how she shoots without it.

Unless of course you or Don has some better ideas? I'm always open for suggestions.