DDPP bullet finning

[Don McDowell]

Grease groove bullets at or just slightly larger than groove diameter, have the lube grooves to soak up the finning caused by the lands. Over sized paper patch bullets have no where to displace the swaging into the groove except of finning on the base, which is a big problem if the diameter of the bullet starts exceeding the bore diameter.
A minor amount of finning on the base won't bother much, longer finning and cupping of the base causes a lot of mysterious poi and excessive group sizes when you shoot at distance.
Then the bullet length to twist thing starts throwing it's chips on the table, and things can go horribly wrong at the target.

[semtav]

Don,
At what point do you consider a bullet to large on a .450 bore?

I've been shooting .454 Dia bullets in those guns for a long time now with excellent accuracy. Only thing that seems to limit the Dia is finding paper thin enough to seat the bullet in the case.

That's why I was asking JKR what all his dimensions were.

What bullets I've recovered showed virtually no finning.

Still waiting for the ice bank to melt to see what all my bullets look like.

[Don McDowell]

451
Define excellent accuracy

[semtav]

Ask Dave Gamble.
The old " if you aren't shooting paper your scattering shells all over hell" is cute but that's all it is

Nice try.

[semtav]

Edit

[Don McDowell]

So how do you define good accuracy?
I define it with+- 3 minutes of vertical at any given distance.

[semtav]

Yes Don, when I'm shooting the gong match and the bullets are staying in about a foot vertical I consider it a good load.

That's 800-900-1000. I don't shoot much else

[JKR]

What are your barrel dimensions and bullet dimensions on your patched to groove adventure. And bullet alloy?

Brian,
.368 bore/.375 groove
.371 bullet patched to .378
I’ve been all over the place with alloy. Currently using 20:1 with BP loads. I may try softer.
For smokeless loads I’ve had good success with a much harder alloy mix using wheel weights.
Smokeless loads require neck tension. I size my cases for smokeless.
Jim

[Lead pot]

I don't have a thumb strong enough to seat a bullet that is over bore diameter. I might go a thousand over bore but that is a hard push with the thumb. Patching to groove works well if the chamber has a deep cylinder freebore or if your willing to give up powder volume.
My DD PP the base is right at groove diameter and the shank above larger base diameter gets patched to bore diameter.
The DD length depends on the amount of freebore the chamber has and the transition from the wider base will be seated tight into the transition into the throat. If you have a shell that holds a large volume of powder and reducing the powder to seat the bullet deep so it chambers like a GG I get very good accuracy patching that bullet to groove diameter. I do this with a couple rifles rifles I have with chambers that have a lot of freebore.

When you get right down to it. A patched bullet patched a couple thousands under bore diameter will be groove diameter by the time it leaves the case from the black powder obturation unless that bullet is very hard.

[Don McDowell]

Yes Don, when I'm shooting the gong match and the bullets are staying in about a foot vertical I consider it a good load.

That's 800-900-1000. I don't shoot much else

So if you're load is shooting that good, then why do you miss nearly a 1/3 of the shots on a 6ft target?

[Don McDowell]

Testing loads on steel is great so long as you're the only one shooting , and can stop and go get a close look at the target when you can't see the splash. It also give you a chance to evaluate whether or not the bullets are hitting the steel nose first.
Having fun in a gong match is not the place to try and determine accuracy especially when there's a number of other people shooting the same target. After everyone on the line gets their first shot, it's pretty tough to tell which bullet strike is new and which one is just showing up due to a change in the light and has been there since the first round.

[semtav]

We don't shoot paper targets.
We shoot gongs.
They are 48 inch targets.
The white bull is usually 30 inches.
I didn't say I can shoot every shot at every match in a 1 foot vertical. I said that is what I consider an accurate load .
On a nice calm morning with no wind that's what I want.
Throw in a lot of wind, the hills and creek to cause a lot of turbulence. We only have a wind flag at the line everything else is mirage dust etc to judge our wind. And that don't help when it's wet or frozen.

When I shot the 29/30 it was a nice day. My only miss was the first shot at 1000. I hadn't got on target quick enough. My failure in sight manipulation, not gun accuracy.

Most matches start at 1 when the wind, mirage, thermals etc really get cranking.

Most matches I'm happy to keep the misses elevation wise between the top and bottom of the white circle. I'm really happy when most of my misses are called at 9 or 3. Then it's just my poor wind reading not the gun.

[semtav]

And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying .451 can't be made to shoot accurately. I can only attest to what I have shot accurately and Ive shot quite a few different +.004 bullets in different rifles with real good success.

[Don McDowell]

But if you don’t test a load in varying conditions then you can’t know for sure if the misses are the easy fall back and blame it on the spotter or is it because the little jet jockey in the nose of the bullet is having trouble with the flaps and stabilizers and ends up crash landing

[semtav]

[Lead pot]

Getting one foot vertical on that range is tough. Sitting on a stool or the ground you're not anchored in like shooting prone and the wind is pushing you around making it very challenging shoot.

I shoot long range steel and paper and shooting the Mt 1000 and the Quigley I feel is very challenging match.
You go on line and the first shot is for score and there is no time to wait out for conditions to change like on the paper matches. Usually the targets are shot up pretty bad and your spotter a lot of times did not see the hit so you can make a correction.

The paper matches you can get a bunch of sighters before going for score and you can wait for conditions to change.
My greatest ambition is to win the Q and the Mt. 1000 because those shoots are a challenge. The best that I have managed to shoot at the Q is a 41.
I hope I can make those two shoots this summer but I think the Q might be out. I'm scheduled for eye surgery on May 30 so maybe I can see the sights again and fulfill my ambition before I retire.

[Don McDowell]

The gong matches anything that makes the target indicate a hit whether it’s skipped or dead center counts the same paper match a hoot in any of the corners gives you 6 but a dead center gives a 10x
Shoot a 1 ft vertical centered on the target and you’ll likely end up winning along with setting a national record
Gong matches are fun to be sure and placing well or winning is a big thrill but it takes a bunch more accuracy and consistency to win a paper match
And now with the various paper matches allowing bench rest that age old arwuement about shooting prone vs siting goes right out the window

[Lead pot]

Yeh....whats next? lead sleds on the benches?

[Don McDowell]

I don’t know some of my better scores have been shot from sitting
Leadskeds? Doesn’t interest me but if it gets the folks out to a match sure why not?

[semtav]

You win Don. Us gong simpletons aren't smart enough to know that bouncing a bullet in to the white don't mean this ain't just the most accurate gun we'd ever seen.
Do you really think we are that stupid not to know the difference between scattering shots all over a gong and an occasional bounce one in for good luck and grouping shots in the same spot on the target aren't the same.




I've spent 10 years shooting .454 bullets in .450 bore rifles almost exclusively and I do think by now I can tell the difference between a bounce in and a good shot.