Did you look at one of the boolits that were sized after being patched? I was wondering if there were any deformations from the sizing die. I got fins a lot when I was trying to size down boolits beyond what was reasonable.Originally Posted by flatsguide
Brian get off your lazy butt and go shoot a paper match maybe you'll learn something..
Long range rules, the rest drool.
My lazy butt flew about 6 hrs today. Had more hits than you.
Last edited by semtav; 03-18-2023 at 06:06 PM.
And I don't need to go to a paper match to learn that a .454 bullet shoots fine in a 450 bore. Evidently flatsguide didn't need to either.
Maybe paper matches aren't all they are cracked up to be if you can't figure that out.
How many groove Dia loads have you shot at a paper match?
Sorry for ruining your thread FG. Glad arnie got you squared away.
Thanks Jim.
Only smokeless I've tried with PP was Blackhorn and it didn't need neck tension.
I'm using 12.5-1 with my Black powder. Gave me lots better results than 16-1 but I'm patching right at groove Dia.
I'm a total newbie to PP bullets. I thought the purpose of PP was for the rifling to engrave the paper and not the bullet? The other question was regarding bullet hardness. 16:1 seems awfully hard to me. I'm breech seating PB bullets in a .32-40 and had no luck with harder bullets. When I dropped the hardness down to 30:1, the groups started approaching 1MOA, actually much better than that, but flyers ruined the groups.
Regards,
Rob
Softer alloys work fine for shorter range shooting,but longrange harder alloys shoot better.
Take a look back at history and you’ll see that alloys commonly used were anywhere from 16-1 to as hard as 11-1 andMetford was even experimenting with mercury in the alloy to get bullets even harder
The rifling does get engraved in the patched bullet and the thicker the paper and larger the bullet diameter the deeper the bullet engraves, hence causing base cupping and finning
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Not a single one testing before going to a match was all I needed to do to determine they weren’t going to cut the mustard.
I’m glad they are serving you well.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
That's why, after studying the habits of most paperpatch shooters this winter, I'd never recommend paperpatch to anyone. Everybody that wants to try it does just that. Try it. So they throw a load together and it sucks and they pronounce it totally inferior to grease groove.
Luckily I followed the advice I got from DanT when I started Paperpatching.
I didn't give up. Even when I cratered at a few local matches.
I see the same thing you just said all the time. I've even done just what you said. Tested something, found out it sucked and ditched it , only to find out later I failed not it.
The old shooters like Metford and the rest that shot the Creedmoor matches actually had less time working with paper patched fixed cartridges before the event of the new less smoke and gilded cartridges took over. They tried all different things like many now starting to return to the paper patched and black powder loads.
The PP interest has been with me for a long time and in this time span I did a lot of different ways to improve my ability to get the best load.
What I found is you can make the groove diameter PP bullet shoot a lot easier than the bore diameter in a lot of different chambers of the same calibers. But you have to get that magnum velocity's out of your head. You just have to work up a load for it. It's not just the primers, alloys, soft, hard, bore or groove diameters, they all are capable of good results.
I see a lot on here starting this trip using the black powder and now paper patching shoot a few rounds and give reports about this or that and get discouraged.
It's like any trade you work with. You have to educate your self to be the best at it.
I still look for that best way and most likely always will. But I find it's my ability not the load at the end of the day at the match.
Brian I have a few rifles with Dan's chambers. At one point in time he sent me a spreadsheet with some load data on it. Interestingly they just worked instantly. That was a big help. The funny part is that he would just rate his loads as "Match" or "Super Match". No more detail that that
I have found these rifles to be quite picky when it comes to powder lots and brands, but when you get a good lot they are excellent. Not long ago I did some gong testing with one of my .45-70's using Swiss Fg. Not a lot of people recommend Fg for that application, but it shot extremely well out to 800 meters.
I think you are right though, not a lot of people put serious effort into making PP work well. It's not that tricky once you get a feeling for it, but if you stray off the path it can cause a bit of grief
Chris.
Elmer Keith’s writings ruined me on expectations for PP - he made it sound soooo easy. Get a Sharps rifle, cast a few bullets, wrap ‘em and shoot ‘em. All the shots should go into one hole at 100 yds. No big deal…LOL
First time I wrapped a bullet and it hit the target I was hooked. Didn't care that I'd shoot a good match then crater at the next, that was what I was going to shoot. Since I started with patched to groove, I decided to just stick with it and find the best methods I could with it. Never loaded for patched to bore. But now I am experimenting with the dual diameter. But I'd never trash any method just cause I couldn't get it to work.
I think you are right though, not a lot of people put serious effort into making PP work well. It's not that tricky once you get a feeling for it, but if you stray off the path it can cause a bit of grief
Chris.
I did that a few times with some of Brent's recommendation's only to find out later it was me that caused the failure, not his recommendation.
Paper patching can be a real challenge and sometimes it can come easy. Grease grooves aren’t a lot different in that respect. But in both instances fouling control is paramount.
One thing that does come clear real quick is the type of shooting and accuracy requirements. Sillhouette, midrange and gong match things that work well can eat your lunch in Creedmoor.
You can own multiple rifles in the same chamber and you may or may not find a load combo that works well in all, and you may find one that while the others shoot well will smack the target leaving perfect bullet side profiles.
As Kurt eluded to its individual rifle load work up. That can eat a lot of powder ,primers and alloy to come up with something you are happy with and you may never find a load with a chosen bullet that you feel confident with.
This BPCR stuff just isn’t picking up a variety of factory ammo at the local slobber shop
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Don,
Not to start an argument, but you keep bring up the difference between Iron and paper matches making it sound like the paper matches are harder.
I have to disagree.
In both matches they're winners and losers. All are shooting at the same targets and conditions on line in both matches.
I shoot both, paper and iron being it critters or the gongs as well as paper and I see some of the top paper shooters that shoot paper down in the lower 50% shooting irons. Yes shooting a consistent 10"X ring or a 20" 10 ring would be excellent with both loads and shooter ability. But those same 1 or 2 MOA hits on irons would be no different than doing it on paper.
During the time that I have shot the Quigley a lot of the top paper and critter shooters that shot the Q have been missing in action, they quit.
I over heard conversations that some of the reason is "I cant hit the bull in the ### sitting and shooting off the sticks sitting in the winds" and I have to agree with them. It is a tough discipline.
But 600 plus shooters show up every year there must be a reason.
I have never seen 600 shooters competing in paper matches.
Back in the creedmoor days a 2 MOA accuracy was considered a top expectancy in those days and still are at the extended ranges I feel.
Yes some of the irons are 60" at the 1K but so are the paper targets and I mark shots on those edges also during the paper matches as well as shots in the dirt.
Kurt as you know a hit any where on a gong counts as 1
But as you well know a hit in the 5 or 6 ring will put you down 4/5 points over the guy shooting a 10
For instance you can shoot 10 8’s but you will still loose the match to someone shooting 9 10’s and a miss
But the one that uses the whole target to shoot an 8 and the shooter that’s shoots all 8 on pins wheels will tie
Not being negative about the gong matches but simply pointing out the differences
As you well know I shoot both types of matches plus the occasional sillhouette
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Jim,
I looked at your numbers again.
I find it interesting that you are taking a bullet .003 over bore and patching it to .003 over groove Dia. Even I woulda thought " well that will never work" !!! Interesting.
I'm still patiently waiting for my ice bank to melt to see what my bullets look like.
I'm wondering ??????????????????????????????
Don's big claim is, the lead has no place to go, therefore it has to cause finning if the bullet is too big.
If the only thing that happens is the bullet is expanding as its moving forward, it may just do that. Clearly in fg's original post thats exactly what looks to be happening.
But what if it doesn't always to that. what if the initial blast forces the bullet out to fill the voids, why would it have to fin if the proper wad is holding the proper alloy from going back into fins as the bullet is expanding.
there has to be a valid explanation why fg's bullet finned and others don't.
Much to KW's (the other KW,. not Kenny) chagrin, I do my chamber casting by lead impact impressions.
Thats what got me to thinking of filling the void, not just dragging lead back.
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