10mm Auto for bear defense?

[Cast10]

Never shot a grizzly. Big boars in Texas are as close as I come.

Shot lots of 44 mag since 18 yo. Bought ranch about 15 years ago. Hog country/thick brush. Somehow, 6 shots crawling through the brush after a wounded hog, deer, whatever, didn’t seem like enough. Too much recoil, not enough medicine pills. Glock 20 was my answer and I haven’t looked back. Lighter recoil, 15+1, and carries well on a belt.
I was in Yellowstone country some years back and took my son hiking. Was told we were in a high density bear area. I packed the G20. Never saw a bear but came upon some fresh scat. It was fresh as my finger told me when I stuck it in to test the temp. My son didn’t appreciate it later when I dove into the bag of Doritos! Anyways, never felt undergunned. I have been told its very hard to find a Glock 10mm in Alaska these days, but I dont’ know that first hand. I kinda like the statement of shooing him in the nose with 9mm. Practice, confidence, carry on.

[Jedman]

After reading many of the points about stopping a grizzly bear with a handgun it makes me remember a video I watched recently about knock down power of large caliber rifles by Ron Spomer.
What he says in the video rings true with many of my experiences is that a lot of times even the largest most powerful calibers have little to no effect of knocking down or stopping even small game animals on the spot.
Sure a hit to the CNS will do it but many times you can send a bullet clean thru game from different angles and there is no immediate reaction no matter what the caliber.
So unless you have the ability to place your shots nearly perfectly in the few seconds you may have , debating whether this caliber and bullet or that caliber and bullet may be fun to talk about but even the largest rifle calibers may not be enough.
Here is the video that I was speaking of and also believe to be true. https://youtu.be./BvWhX2MHzYQ




Jedman

[Bigslug]

Jedman, Post #22



I've pseudo-scientifically been collecting data from myself and others that indicates large mammals (deer & pigs) often take something like ten (ish) seconds to fall to the ground after taking a solid cardiovascular hit. There are plenty of anecdotes regarding motivated and drugged-out humans that parallel this. We had this problem in close quarters against the Moros with 220 grain round noses out of .30-40 Krags - which otherwise given time and space to dodge, should provide adequate rapid drainage of any dangerous game on the planet.

I once shot a quail that I was immediately able to gut and pluck. Headless, gutless, and looking like a store-bought turkey fresh out of it's plastic wrap, the carcass still twitched and pulsed with nervous impulses when I rinsed it off with ice water. This was maybe 10 minutes after knocking it out of the sky. Good material for any zombie film.

So in the context of a large carnivore (grizzly bear), that is angry, full of adrenaline, and determined to kill you, I think it's worth realizing/accepting that there is no 100% "RIGHT NOW!" off-switch for the scenarios we're describing. A cardiovascular kill that takes 10 seconds to a minute still allows a bear to kill you five times over - which is why I'm inclined to think in terms of brain, or nothing, and why I think hand cannons are not likely to offer real advantages over medium bore solids.

Of course, none of this answers anything - a successful 9mm bear stop will be answered by "got lucky"; an unsuccessful 9mm bear encounter will be answered by "shoulda used more gun"; and an unsuccessful .454 Casull bear encounter will be answered with "it was just the day for the bear to win", or even still "shoulda used more gun"

I am kinda curious that the Taser people haven't looked at this. You'd need longer prongs to get through the fur, and then you still have the problem of needing backup officers way out in the boonies to handcuff and transport a pissed off grizzly bear between repeated shocks. . .seriously though, the rapid incapacitation of electrical disruption is what's needed here, despite the practical setbacks.

[david s]

I haven't drunk the 10mm Koolaid but I have stirred up a couple of batches. The 10mm meets my personal bottom line. My bottom line being 200 grain NOE 403-198-WFN bullet and 1200 fps. Oddly this is my minimum for both as a bullet weight and velocity combo. If the velocity can be increased safely above 1200 fps I add bullet weight instead. The S&W 625 in 45 Colt only does 950 fps but it does this with a 285 grain RCBS-270-SAA bullet that has a better meplat/shape than the 10mm's so it not doing 1200 doesn't bother me. The 41 and 44 Magnum do 1100-1200 fps with a LBT 411-250-WLN and Noe 434-319-RF. Basically I'll take weight over velocity within reason. I don't plan on quick drawing and shooting a bear. I'm figuring we've gone past that. After I'm done being shaken like a rat by a terrier and the bear is hopping up and down on it's fore legs on me like they do it's going to be a contact shooting. I'm figuring the muzzle gasses/flash are just as likely to do as much damage as the bullet. I have no great insight to this argument as I've never shoot a bear with a handgun. Any traditional handgun cartridge would be a pretty poor choice if you knew you were going to have an encounter. So if your going to compromise how far down do you go? After breaking my thumb pretty badly in my 20's and re injuring it somewhat recently adding in arthritis the 45 Colts making more and more sense. The 10mm Glock or 10mm 1911 don't aggravate as much either. So do 9 40/200/1200 or 16 40/200/1200 beat 6 at 45/285/900?

[Bigslug]

Some 9mm results reflecting my current thinking:

130 grain .357 NOE/Ranch Dog tumble lube. Air-cooled wheel weight and 3.7 grains of Bullseye for a muzzle velocity of 1030 fps.





That's the recovered bullet poking out the 9th 1-gallon, water-filled milk jug in the stack. Pretty much the same performance I got with the nearly identical bullet profile of LBT's 230 grain .45 Auto bullet at 830fps. In either case the first several jugs in the stack get some displacement-created rupturing, after which the bullet simply pencils through the remainder of the SIX FEET of water before coming to a halt. For comparison, the typical jacketed police duty load will stop in 3 jugs, sometimes four. As I recall from years ago, the 180 grain .357 Magnum Black Talon (marketed as a hunting round more than SD) stopped in 5.

At 100 yards from a Ruger PC Carbine, it still has enough juice to pop a single:



So, while I'm not going necessarily to argue against bigger being better, I do have to argue that - within the confines of what we can practically carry on our hip - it may not be so much better (with the only perceivable advantage being a small amount of diameter) as to outweigh the benefits of lighter weight, more control, and more rounds.

Based on the factors of my last post, this is mostly a forensic exercise in which handgun system gives your family a larger piece of meat to bury, and how far the coroner has to travel up your keister or down your throat to extract your handgun from where the bear shoved it.

[david s]

Phil Shoemaker the Alaskan fishing and bear guide stopped a grizzly charge with some fishing clients using a 9mm somewhat recently, like in the last decade or so. The grizzly that killed and ate Treadwell and his girlfriend was supposedly stopped by 40 S&W. And in the 1980's there was a photo spread in an outdoor magazine where a Fish Wildlife and Parks officer was pulled down off the culvert trap by the grizzly being released and killed by the officers 357. It's been done more than a few times with lesser rounds. I wasn't at any of these events so can't comment on them. I tend to come down on the side of deeper penetration trumping all other factors but I've been wrong before.

[crash87]

I've hunted for and took exactly one Grizzly (Brown) Bear, I don't plan on ever doing it again. Why? it has gotten very expensive, with that said I really don't have a desire anymore, even if it was as affordable for me as the first time. One was enough, and I would rather hunt like about 7 other things with the money spent on one Brown bear hunt. Now,
If a 10MM was all I had, I would go with the only thing I have, the 10mm. Seeing as how that wouldn't be the only thing I'd have because I wouldn't even consider taking it, its a decision I wont even have to make. In fact I used a 338, and didn't even bring a Handgun, "backup"! I even have a few of the big boomers associated with bear backup "revolvers"! The only time I really missed it was when I was in a one man tent for 14 nights, in a drainage at 5000 ft, trying to figure out if a bear was to come, to investigate a snoring sound, would he come from/for my feet, or the source of this obnoxious sound, my head? So I rolled the dice and alternated, muzzle up or down until I got cocky and started flipped a coin. BTW when your up close and personal to one of these beasts, any rifle that has "BIG" in front of "Bore" seems small. Enjoy the debate,
crash87

[Markwell]

We have had the privilege of travelling in Griz country and living in Black Bear country for over fifty years. That said, we've never shot a bear; came close a few times though. When younger, we carried any one of an assortment of .44 magnums; Model 29-2s being our favorites, especially the 5 inch barreled ones, of which we currently have 2. Our load was a 300gr LBT at a bit over 1000fps. A 5" 29 and the 300gr LBT load was our standard armament in bear country and was our constant companion while working several seasons in a hunting camp in the Wyoming Range east of Bondurant. However, as we got older we found that recoil management with the big .44 and placing shots on target quickly was not as easy as it used to be. And, practicing with the load was down right painful. At the suggestion of a friend in Salmon we tried the 10mm in both a Glock 20 and a 1911. Being an old practical shooter (pre-USPSA/IDPA)the 1911 got the nod. It's not a magnum but our Guncrafter Industries 1911 (with a six inch barrel) sends a Montana Bullet Works 200gr WFN GC bullet propelled by 12.5gr of AA#9 down range at 1262fps. Recoil isn't even close to the old Model 29's and the multiple hit factor is way higher. Just one man's solution and opinion.

[JSnover]

Here's a revealing trend I've noticed on these 'handgun for bear' threads: The guys who have been there and done it will tell you to Place Your Shot, no matter what you use (and the .357 is adequate).
The guys who wonder what it must be like will tell you to get something bigger, no matter what you use.

[scattershot]

The world record grizzly was taken by an Indian lady with a .22. Just sayin’.

[dogdoc]

I would think a cast 200 grain bullet at 1200+ FPS would penetrate great. In Alabama I don’t worry too much about bears and certainly not griz bears but I have spent a good bit of time on fishing trips in bear country over the years and always carried a 44 mag. I had to euthanize a 2000 pound bull a while back with a 44 250 Keith at around 1000 FPS. It penetrated like no tomorrow and humanely killled the animal. I know that is not a bear but I bet that 10mm with 200 grain hard cast at 1200 would be effective . Interestingly enough , a few years ago a black bear was spotted on my farm in an area no bears are normally seen. I have read they can be more likely to attack you for a meal? Don’t know though. Just another excuse to buy a new 10 mm ��

[memtb]

Heck, a properly placed knitting needle will kill a grizzly.....but, that doesn’t make it a recommended method for taking down a grizzly or any other large animal!

Obviously, bullet placement, and construction is the top priority! While I’ve not been attacked by a grizzly, I have seen a few at close range when hunting. When seen at fairly close range....they are an impressive animal. The strength and speed of a bear is remarkable! I have had my butt thoroughly kicked by a large black bear at a county fair....and he wasn’t adrenaline pumped, just whipping my butt while awaiting his next “victim” The largest, most powerful handgun you are competent with will seem pretty inadequate if/when needed!

The vast majority of hunters/shooters have never killed a bear with a handgun....and fewer yet have used one against a bear (any bear) in self-defense!

Use whatever makes you comfortable! You will never know if it is enough, until you use it! That is the bottom line! memtb

[dverna]

The local group of bear hunters hunts close to me (northern MI) and also hunts in the UP...where there will typically be larger bears. I have run with them a few times. They harvest 12-19 bears a year with about half taken in each area of the state. They have been doing this for decades and have taken hundreds of bears.

The preferred side arm for dispatching a bear that has been wounded is a Glock 10mm. I believe 3-4 of them carry it. These bears that are hunted with dogs and most are treed and shot, but some are taken on the ground.

I would not hunt with a 10mm and none of them do. Bears are hunted with a shotgun or rifle but no bear has survived a finishing shot or three with the 10mm.

[358429]

I drank the 10mm Kool Aid in the late 1980's. I've since gotten over it. In the time since I have learned:

1. I can get all the penetration necessary and more out of .45 ACP, 9x19,.38/357 at tame recoil levels with proper manipulation of alloy, shape, or jacketing, and no need to acquire a quasi-exotic round or a crew-served handgun to deliver it.

2. I've totally jettisoned the idea of foot-pounds of energy providing anything really meaningful. If you aren't knocked on your butt by the recoil, a bear won't be knocked on his butt by the impact.

3. The FBI's theory of hydrostatic displacement causing additional damage beyond bullet diameter not being significant until you are striking at around 2000 fps or more pretty much takes ALL handguns off the table if that is what you are trying to accomplish.

That leaves us with bore diameter being the only really difference between anything you're going to launch out of a pistol, and a very large animal is highly unlikely to know or care if it is bleeding out from a .35 or .45 caliber hole, or a collection of them.

If Mr. Griz wants to eat me, I'll be trying to thread one in through the soft tissues of his nasal tunnel into his brain. A small swarm of 9mm solid flat points above 130 grains should do in that scenario as well as anything. A fatter round of equal penetrating capability might be better at breaking the larger, supporting skeletal bones, but that's more of a bear hunting answer and less of a bear defense one.

The 10mm is essentially a re-packaged 38-.40, which has - what? - a 150+ year history of successfully killing all kinds of stuff. Sure, it'll work, but there's nothing mystical about it or any other round. Placement, penetration, and speed of blood loss are what it's all about, and a great many things can provide that.

"A small swarm of 9mm solid flat points above 130 grains should do in that scenario as well as anything."

I think this is the truth. If you lack competency with putting holes in your target within the allotted time your brains may come out as bear scat. Do well with what you have Where You Are. Skill set will transfer over to any handgun if you train hard and shoot well and practice and may save your life or the life of someone important to you.

Get a grip strength exerciser and use it!
Practicing shooting double action revolvers has made me more competent with auto pistols.

Start practicing rapid fire at a close distance and once you can keep them all on the plate increase the distance and increase the speed. If you are missing or pulling shots off Target slow down and decrease the distance.

Once you run the handgun like a sewing machine all you got to do is stitch them some new buttons at a thousand feet per second. I'm not sure that any animal Will Survive 10 shots to the face in 3 seconds.


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[358429]

I haven't drunk the 10mm Koolaid but I have stirred up a couple of batches. The 10mm meets my personal bottom line. My bottom line being 200 grain NOE 403-198-WFN bullet and 1200 fps. Oddly this is my minimum for both as a bullet weight and velocity combo. If the velocity can be increased safely above 1200 fps I add bullet weight instead. The S&W 625 in 45 Colt only does 950 fps but it does this with a 285 grain RCBS-270-SAA bullet that has a better meplat/shape than the 10mm's so it not doing 1200 doesn't bother me. The 41 and 44 Magnum do 1100-1200 fps with a LBT 411-250-WLN and Noe 434-319-RF. Basically I'll take weight over velocity within reason. I don't plan on quick drawing and shooting a bear. I'm figuring we've gone past that. After I'm done being shaken like a rat by a terrier and the bear is hopping up and down on it's fore legs on me like they do it's going to be a contact shooting. I'm figuring the muzzle gasses/flash are just as likely to do as much damage as the bullet. I have no great insight to this argument as I've never shoot a bear with a handgun. Any traditional handgun cartridge would be a pretty poor choice if you knew you were going to have an encounter. So if your going to compromise how far down do you go? After breaking my thumb pretty badly in my 20's and re injuring it somewhat recently adding in arthritis the 45 Colts making more and more sense. The 10mm Glock or 10mm 1911 don't aggravate as much either. So do 9 40/200/1200 or 16 40/200/1200 beat 6 at 45/285/900?

Fantastic lot of pistols to choose from man. Which one is your favorite one to shoot for fun?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[44MAG#1]

I hope I am not inappropriate with this summation on these threads.
They are about as useful as the threads on Handgun Stopping Power such as the one awhile back concerning self defense which isn't much.. Human nature dictates how we believe. Some will not change their mind even if Jesus says it. Some will change their mind no matter who says it whether the person saying it has no credentials or has a list of credentials as long as the Empire State Building is tall.
Bottom line is all will do as we want when we want regardless.
I have been waiting for PETTYPLACE to reveal his revelation he said was coming on the Handgun Stopping Power thread a while back but still haven't seen it. Probably never will. He knows it won't change a thing like this thread

[david s]

358429, In semi auto it's the 1911 Kimber. I began looking at the 10mm's about 5 years ago. I wanted to like the Glock 20 as they seemed to have a better record for longevity. But I just couldn't. This winter I fell into a nice deal on the Glock, if it hadn't been a 10mm I'd still have passed though. That said the model 20 does everything it's suppose to and well, there just so clunky though. My N frame round butts get all set up the same so there pretty much interchangeable. The 329 44 magnum gets carried the most because it's the lightest. This air weight magnum makes an okay 44 magnum but a truly great 44 Special. If I was going to pick the favorite it would be the 41 magnum Mountain Gun. I've always liked the 41's. The 45 Colt is seeing more use because of my thumb problems. Early this spring after a long Montana winter (at least for a Florida native) we had a very nice spring day. On the spear of the moment I went to a gopher field carrying a T/C Contender pistol in 22 Hornet about two miles from where the lady bicyclist was later killed by the grizzly this summer. Being I was only going to be about 1/4 mile from my vehicle and I left sort of on the run I stuffed a 3 inch model S&W 65 in my back pocket loaded with your name sake at about 1200 fps.

[1hole]

The first thing to know about big bears is they can and will kill you if they want to. Second thing to know is that bullet "knock-down power" mostly exists in movies and TV, not the real world. I love my 1911 and stout 250 gr. boolit reloads but the one living thing I ever shot with it was a +/- 30 pound feral dog hit lengthways from upper right shoulder to nuts. It did not exit, he soon died but he was NOT knocked down, so he absorbed it all. I don't believe a bear hit with a .458 Win Mag will be knocked down either.

There is a vast difference between what's theoretically possible and what's reasonable to expect. Some (silly) folk seem to think that a .22 rimfire short can kill a bear so, if hit right, the .22 long rifle should be plenty. Well, Karamojo Bell killed hundreds of elephant with a 7x57 in his day but even he would not have suggested it was a nice elephant cartridge.

A bear's skull is quite thick and, from the nose back, that's enough tapered armor to easily deflect low powered (handgun) bullets. I doubt that even a dozen puny 9 or 10mm hits into a ticked-off bear's face would be a reliable stopper. YMMV.

[mac60]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj7Z5oMWuIU

We don't have any Grizzly bears in Alabama, but after seeing that I don't think a 10mm handgun is gonna offer much protection at all.

[358429]

I saw that video years ago and somebody was saying he used #8 birdshot

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk